Navigating Mental Health at Work

Transcript

Lachy Gray  

Today we're talking about our mental well being at work, which is really important, yet difficult. When is it okay to talk about mental health at work, and when is it not. And what's the health issue, versus overstepping your work boundary, and these are some questions that I've been reflecting on recently and I've really been challenged by, I think in the past. And I also asked you to what extent can leaders share their mental well being, with their peers and with their teams. So lots to unpack and I'm really keen to hear your thoughts, Karen.

Karen K  

Yeah, thanks. Okay, I think this is a great topic, particularly because we often talk about it, Bringing your whole self to work which lends itself to the idea that we are open about mental well being. And I think with this topic there are some WHS obligations. And there are also some ethical ones. And sometimes what I see with businesses is, You know as late as we want to help, but we don't want to be a counselor. And so we can feel like we're stuck in this situation, where it's like I really want to help this person but at the same time I'm not sure that I'm the best person to do that. So I think you know, two situations so that we could talk through which is one whereas someone asked for help. And then another is where they're not asking but you think they might be struggling. And so when someone asks for help, then what do we do. And for me, I always advise people that the most important thing to do is to listen, because a lot of us have a tendency to want to jump in and give solutions. And I've learned personally over time but that's definitely my MO, so I have to resist the urge to fix the problem, which can be really difficult. But what happens is if someone's asking for help and I'm just trying to give them solutions. Then they feel like I'm not listening to them. And actually, they may not want me to fix it, they may just be asking for help because they want me to listen. So it is something that I've learned over time is, if somebody has happened to me recently, you know, I've asked people that you okay and they've just kind of broken down into tears and they didn't expect to break down into tears and I didn't expect it either. And so I've just said okay well, you know, do you want to talk about it. And then starting to unpack, what's happening and particularly the moment with a lot of people in lockdown. You're unpacking okay. What do you think might be going on, and then actually just asking, Do you want me to just listen and to help you to try and unpack these ideas, or do you like me to start thinking about some solutions because I think that my experience has told me that's the better way for people to feel like they're being listened and enables me to know what my role is because I think that's can be the really big difficulty. Is what does this person want me to do, you know, am I listening or am I fixing. Have you ever been in that kind of situation.

Lachy Gray  

For sure. Yeah, and I think that's a really, really valuable insight in understanding what our role our role is in a conversation like that. Because I do sometimes find myself thinking yeah what's, what's expected of me. Yeah, and I like the idea of clarify, I guess in a way, is, am I, am I listening or what would you like a solution. One way I've, I've heard this approach is, do you want empathy, or do you want to solution. And I think can help the person we're speaking with as well to clarify for them, because I think I know for me sometimes if you're asked How you going in, as you said, yeah, you start answering and then you go off on this whole nother path and tangent, that you really didn't expect to, but there you are. And I think it's important to acknowledge that. And, you know to to ask, what, what, What am I asking for in this situation, wanted to ask you women, if you're in that situation where you've asked someone if they're okay. And they have started to unpack on you, but it's not the right time for you, as in, you don't have the time or you're not in the right headspace yourself to really be there for them. What are some suggestions on how you can approach that situation.

Karen K  

Yeah, that's a really good question. I think it would depend on the state of the person. So, if I've got someone that's, you know, crying clearly agitated. To be honest, I just make the time it doesn't matter what's going on. I can't think of another situation that would override that need because you know that person is in a really not good place right there and they've chosen me as someone that can listen to them and to then, you know, basically ignore that and say look, it's really important but I need to go this other meeting. You know that that's really going to shut down that person and opening up again it may impact on their feelings of self worth, because I think I'm not even good enough for someone to listen to me. So, you know, so I think that it would be really difficult for me to ever turn around and go, I just don't have the time for these. It's certainly true that sometimes you are just, you're mentally exhausted yourself. And, you know, you just don't feel like you want to listen to these like I've certainly been in those situations as well. And it is really difficult. And I think the best thing that I have found to do is to allow the person to talk through things, but then to just be honest and just say to them, you know, I really I'm listening to and I really want to be able to help but I'm just, I'm actually just not in a great place today either. How about you know we both have a think through what's going on, make some notes and, and let's talk again tomorrow. But I would also put into that conversation, you know what kind of support do you have. So you know, is there someone that you're talking to at the moment. Is there somebody, if it's not you know, is there someone that you can talk to and you know and try and just make sure that you've got those support mechanisms, because I think that it's, it's a big step for people to ever disclose that something's going on anyway and then for them to do that and then feel they're not being heard, I think can be incredibly damaging.

Lachy Gray  

Yeah, that's really true. And I'm keen to hear your thoughts on that situation where you spoke earlier about desire to help, but the fact that we're not a counselor, and how would you suggest approaching that situation where someone is opening up to us and, you know, we really want to be there for them, but we feel like it's kind of overstepping this boundary of of colleagues, and it's really entering that territory of, you know I'm not the best part don't feel like I'm the best person to support them in this, this time of need. How do you suggest we approach that situation which can be can be quite challenging from personal experience.

Karen K  

Yeah, absolutely, it can be and I think it's important that you know we do have certain boundaries. Because we need boundaries on we're not a professional. And, you know, I will say to people. Yeah, I've worked in HR for a long time I have a psychology degree but I am not a psychologist, I've never practiced as a psychologist, you know, I do not have the qualifications to be able to help you with these, what I can do is listen, I can be on the end of the phone and have a cup of tea with you, you know, whatever it might be particularly now, not in person. But, you know, I really think that the feelings that you're having  are valid and they are impacting on your life in those particular ways that you've explained. And, you know So my best advice would be to get some professional assistance and whether that's through an employee assistance program which some businesses have, it could be through, you know, talking to your GP and GPs, do give referrals where you can get five sessions that you can get Medicare rebates on so it doesn't have to be overly expensive. You can contact the Black Dog Institute lifeline that there are lots of great support services out there. So I think, although we often feel these things come out of nowhere, we know that one in three Australians at any point in time are suffering and mental health issues. So I think it is something that's worthwhile considering and being intentional about in your workplace to have some support service details available so that if you or you know one of your employees or your managers find themselves in a situation where they're talking to someone they can easily go on the intranet, whatever it is and say okay well, You know, here's, here's some people that would be good for you to have a chat to. And I think that's also helpful, you know in that second situation that I referenced previously which is what you think that someone's struggling, but they're not actually talking to you about it, which can be just as difficult, and I've certainly had that before with team members where they've just completely changed so they, you know the work product is not what it was their personality differs. It could be that they're acting out in different ways. And, and I think that's an important conversation as well to have to say to someone you know, are you okay like I've noticed recently that you don't seem like your normal self is is something that you want to talk through. So to have those resources there is really important for those conversations as well.

Lachy Gray  

Yeah, for sure, especially news, remote environment that many of us find ourselves in, where you have less signals down here on to really check in on someone, you can't see them as you would in an office you can, You can't see their, their body language. So you have, perhaps, how they write in their emails, how they sound on the phone, how they appear on on video. And but it's very limited. And then as you say if they, if they're not necessarily willing to talk about it. That can be very challenging. So, I guess, and this is something that I'm really learning is that, you know, leaders have a really important role to play here. Not just in being there for the for the team, but also in their own managing their own mental well being. So, what do you recommend for for leaders from that perspective.

Karen K  

Yeah, this is a tricky, tricky one. So I often say to leaders you know you're an umbrella so you should be shielding your employees, while the crappy stuff is happening. Because, as an employee, we don't want our leaders to be saying things like, you know, this is a crap place to work. I hate working here. But equally, I've had situations where employees have said to me that the owner of the business does say, you know I've mortgaged my house this business has to work. That just puts incredible pressure on the employees that then start feeling like, oh, like I'm actually responsible for whether this guy keeps his house or not. So I think that we need to consider that, you know, we are an umbrella and we need to try and shield, what we can and find another outlet, and so that can be you know a business partner, it could be an HR consultant, it could be a mentor, it could be a psychologist. But when there's smaller things happening, like if it's just, you know what, this lockdown is really getting to me I've been in my house for eight weeks home schooling and I'm really just missing seeing my family, like that's okay we can be honest about that because that's, you know, appropriately, honest, and it is actually acknowledging that we're human and fallible. what are your thoughts.

Lachy Gray  

Oh great. It's interesting, we run regular one on ones with our team and they often say, Well, who do you do a one on one with me, and I think it's a really good, really good point. And I've seen counselors in the past. On my Yarno journey to help me unpack everything that's going on and I think it's a fantastic, was it was a fantastic experience for me. And I've tried to, I guess rethink how I approached it. I think if my physical fitness. I go to the gym regularly. I put a lot of time in it proactively to, to improve in the future. Why wouldn't I do the same for my mental fitness, and I think talking to somebody who is objective third party is just asking questions in his listening is really, really important. And I've done that in the past, actually, to help me define some boundaries. As we were just talking about where I had, employees, to the oversharing, you know, one on ones and I felt really out of my depth in that I wanted to support them, but I felt like it was overstepping, but I didn't want to push them away. And so speaking with the counselor when he helped me to better understand my position, and those boundaries, and then to be able to communicate them to by to my team, so that I can better support them, but it's certainly a journey that I feel like I'm only at the beginning of. So if we broaden this idea, Karen. I think you you mentioned before, really checking in on each other in a safe space so we could ask you, how are you going at the moment, or you don't seem to be yourself lightly. Are you okay, but what about if an employee discloses to you or one of their colleagues that they actually really struggling, and perhaps they're self harming or, or they're suicidal.

Karen K  

Yeah, and these are really terrible situations and they do happen in in workplaces your workplace is just a microcosm of greater society, and we do have this situation where people do disclose really serious issues to their colleagues or their managers so I think welfare checks for the most important thing to do at that point if someone's disclosing in self harm or suicidal thoughts, because we do have some disclosure obligations as well when it gets to that level because we need to make sure that this person is okay so it's checking in quite frequently so and actually sayng the person you know I am going to be texting you to make sure you're right and he should text me back. And you know, if I don't hear from you. Then, I am going to call the police because I'm going to be really quite concerned for your health and safety. And again asking them what support they have so, you know, do they have family members, friends, do they have a psychologist that they're seeing. And, you know in extreme situations that I have had this before where you don't hear from the employee then unfortunately that point, you know, you do what you should be calling the police and letting them know the situation and asking them to conduct a welfare check. So police will go out to the person's home and then we'll check in on them to make sure they're okay. And, you know, it goes down to, yes, there are definitely WHS obligations here but it's also just an ethical obligation as well to another human being, you know someone is saying something like that to us and this is a horrible myth out there that people say well if someone's talking about suicide, they're not going to do it. You know that that's just not true. You have to take every time someone says to you that they're feeling like that you need to take it seriously.

Lachy Gray  

Yeah, and I think it's so important to talk about that isn't it. It's not something that has really been discussed in places I've worked on in the past. And this is one thing that I think about is that we might have the best intentions to support people, but that we might not actually know how to do it, or that we might say the wrong thing or make things worse, potentially. So one of the things that we've talked about at Yato recently is we, is practice checking in with each other in a, in a roleplay situation so in the same way that we practice giving and receiving feedback to each other once a month on zoom as a team. We can practice, checking in on each other. And also, role playing it. So if in that scenario where someone says that they're not okay. We can actually practice for what would we say, and how could we check in if they are receiving support elsewhere and if they're not, what can we recommend us, as you mentioned before, my services like Black Dog lifeline or theories in AIP, so that when the time comes, that we are comfortable having that conversation, and that we don't hold back, simply for fear of not knowing what to say.

Karen K  

Yeah, absolutely. And, you know I think another way that I'm seeing this play out in businesses at the moment is, you know, an employee just doesn't become very responsive. So we're working remotely, and then all of a sudden, we're just not hearing from them today, and we're sending an email out okay we're supposed to tomorrow that into the phone. And I say that the usual first inclination is that person is just taking advantage of working from home, which, you know, could be the case. But I think that it's important to consider what maybe they're actually just not in a great place right now. And to make that extra effort to actually reach out to that person as well so I think that practicing checking in on your teammates is, is a fantastic idea.

Lachy Gray  

Sure. So, so let's talk about some, some of the takeaways from today's episode, Karen, we've, we've spoken about the importance of regularly checking in on each other and, perhaps, you know, sharing some questions that we can ask to help do that, such as the ones we've mentioned before, and I think you've, you've also made the point that we really have an obligation to support and checking on our staff, especially if they share that they're struggling, that we don't need to be a counselor, and that setting boundaries is, is really important. but we do you need to be providing support to appropriate services. And if there is an AOP in place or another service that we're being proactive about it, that we're encouraging our staff and our managers to use it to get healthy at work, or to speak with other services like Beyond Blue Black Dog Institute, and so on. Karen, any other takeaways, you'd like to add.

Karen K  

Yeah, I think probably the other thing is with those resources is that a lot of them can actually be quite proactive so it doesn't need to be that there's a problem in the workplace, either. So things like get healthy at work, which we'll put the links to on our websites and on this podcast. Yeah, they're just great videos and resources for employees so I think that's probably an important thing as well as how do we get proactive about this and we don't just think about it in terms of or if we have a problem this is what we do.

Lachy Gray  

Yes, absolutely. Well, that's it for today's episode we'll put the links to articles and anything else that we have discussed on yahoo.com today you and amplify hr.com Today you just follow the links. And if you've received value from this episode, we would really appreciate it if you could leave a rating or review over at Apple podcasts, Karen.

Karen K  

Yeah and coming up in the next episode is actually going to discuss an HBR article where many business owners describe themselves as overachievers. And the question is, are they actually damaging their workplace through what they also consider to be their personal strength.

Lachy Gray  

Oh I've got lost, size, people into this one. So that one's coming off in two weeks from now on, please click the subscribe button so you will be notified of when that is available. Any final thoughts Karen, I would just like to ask Lachy, are you okay. I am and I do always feel better after talking with you code, and I appreciate you checking in, no worries. Well thanks so much for joining us today, and we will see you next time on the Make It Work podcast.