The Boundary Between Overachieving and Strong Leadership

Transcript

Karen K  

So today we're talking about some research that was conducted and published in the Harvard Business Review, about how many business owners will be described as overachievers, which generates passion and energy and fuels business growth but there's also a dark side, which is that by relentlessly focusing on goals, we can actually damage our business performance because overachievers tend to command and coerce rather than coach, and collaborate. Our goal in this episode today is not to pick through and give a summary of the article, but it's more of a springboard to the question that's been posed, which is that if one of our greatest personal strengths as business owners or leaders, is it also damaging our business. So I wanted to kick off with asking you Lachy if you've ever worked with a leader who would be considered an overachiever and what pros and cons, did you see.

Lachy Gray  

Yeah, well I have on, I've worked with a few actually, they were quite enthusiastic I had huge amounts. Seems to be out of work, all hours well into the night, and always find a solution. and I found it quite easy to get caught up in their enthusiasm, and I found it quite difficult to say no to them, and two of them in particular, there were quite dominant, they weren't collaborative at all. And they wanted things to be done, their way to the standard so a real micromanagers and you really knew about it, if you didn't meet they're, they're quite exactly expectations. And one of the tongue in cheek things we used to say about one of them was, why haven't you done the thing I haven't asked you to do.

Karen K  

That's great. And so when you're working with those kinds of people is that something that you found motivating, or inspiring, or was it more, you know, oh my goodness, like this is overwhelming, and this is, you know, not a good way to be.

Lachy Gray  

It's interesting I think in the short term. I found it, motivating for sure, especially while I was new, I was trying to get a lay of the land, and I felt that that motivation their enthusiasm, their personalities. In that time resulted in generally high standards being met, but I started to notice a few side effects such as just fatiguing people just people getting really tired, and having the enthusiasm in their own motivation just killed really. And also, I think it's thoughtful disagreement, so really discouraged people to give feedback and raise ideas, because often they would either be ignored or shouted down, and the longer I was there I realized it was also preventing less experienced team members from from growing and having ownership. So I think, while in the short term, it probably resulted in in fair performance I think over the long term, it probably stunted performance.

Karen K  

Yeah and it's interesting because as you were talking I was actually thinking about Amazon because that's always a company that I think of when I think about that type of relentless performance culture, and, you know, leaders that expect to, to know the answers to a question they haven't asked yet. And I have had people say to me what you know look at how successful. Amazon is so how can you say that, that type of behavior in leaders is a bad thing when it clearly, you know does lead to success of businesses. But I do wonder how long that successes. So with those leaders that you worked with previously, you know, do you know what's happened to them over time or their businesses over time. Is it something that's still around, are they still behaving in those ways or have you not actually kept in contact.

Lachy Gray  

Though the, the, still around in the business is still around, and, yeah, by all accounts, they still going. I think the, the staff turnover is has certainly been relatively high. And that's always the question I, I sort of come back to, when we, we put people like Jeff Bezos on a pedestal. In the question is at what cost. I know for him. I think for him personally, like he's very single minders. And I think it's been divorced. Now, I don't know what to what extent as a result of what happened in the in the business but I think there are plenty of ex Amazon employees who talked to them and kind of getting swept up and then kind of chucked out because they just didn't meet the standards requirements, and two of my past bosses who I would say we're overachievers. But they were actually quite collaborative and well meaning, they both burned out and had serious health issues as a result, and one of them actually had a heart attack. And, you know, I was in my mid 20s At that time, and this, this boss was a mentor to me, that whole episode really impacted me and got me thinking about how I did my work and thinking about balance, and the importance of working in a healthy way. And, And, and, in some ways I'm grateful for that experience because I think it's still informs how I think about things today, you know at ya know.

Karen K  

Yeah, I think that's such a good point that you've made around the personal health because we think about these types of businesses and leaders and say Well, Peter, can they be successful in the long term. But it's not just about the businesses and entities, it's also about the actual people within it. So, you know, if you want to have a successful sustainable business in the long term, and actually look after yourself and your people. Is that kind of behavior, really the way to go. You know there was another article in the paper about Amazon on the weekend with the drivers, saying, you know, there's just these unrelenting standards that they have to try and meet, or they just get fired through an app, you know. So, which I know over, you know, has been accused off for quite a while but I think that that's kind of the, the next part of all these is that you get this groundswell of discontent which gets out into the public eye, and it starts to then ruin the brand, over time, as well as. Okay, so I just wonder whether, you know, it's kind of broadening this idea of these overachievers and you know what we might say at the moment in our own businesses. And I was trying to think of you know some examples of where we might see this and one of them was just forgetting to communicate, crucial information because we're taking shots to get to a goal because if we're overachievers and we're just trying to make sure that we're running towards that goal and getting things done, then we might actually forget to tell people walking away, what the goal is, and what we're trying to achieve and I think with so many of us in Australia in lockdown at the moment, you know, it's even more pronounced when we're working remotely.

Lachy Gray  

Yeah, for sure. It reminds me of that phrase. Slow is smooth and smooth as fast as sometimes we have to slow down, to be able to go faster in the future. And yeah, I think it's an unfortunate side effect, when we are moving quickly, that we forget to communicate, especially context. And one of the things that I've noticed with remote work is that context becomes a casualty of remote work I think you have to work a lot harder at sharing context, because you're not seeing each other You're not in person, you're not picking up cues, and signals throughout the day. You have to explicitly create those and share them, which is, which is challenging, and tiring to be self aware and always thinking about okay so when I send this out, what background knowledge does everyone already have. Is there anybody who is totally new to this, and we talk about, you know, assuming the when we're sending something out that people have no background knowledge so that everyone's starting from the same point. Now, that takes time, it takes, it takes time to create that context, and to share it. But I think it's really important, because if we don't have the context, then we can't really get on board, and especially as a, as a leader, if we're communicating really important information or changes, then we want to make sure that everybody is on board with us, and they understand the reason why. And what's the context behind what we're asking them to do or what we're sharing with them.

Karen K  

Yeah, and that's not easy to do, right, because it is about that. Intentional aspect which is easy to forget where we just get busy.

Lachy Gray  

Yeah,

Karen K  

yeah. Another thing that I was thinking about with the idea of overachievers and you touched on it before as well is that just relentlessly focusing on results and numbers so forgetting about the human element in our business forgetting to ask people if they're okay. And just really constantly communicating, you know, numbers, numbers, numbers and how that can actually impact on the organization as well.

Lachy Gray  

Yeah, I think that's a surefire way to push people out, really. And I think our hope actually that the last two years now, really, isn't it, of COVID and lockdowns, has been a catalyst for us to check in with each other in to actually talk more about the mental health side of things. And perhaps that's because we've, we've got a shared experience now. Whereas in the past, if someone was going through a tough time. You know, and they might not be sharing that so you don't actually know what's going on for them, and they might feel as though they had to put on a brave face when actually, in their personal life, things are things are really crumbling. And, and, certainly, for me, I would say I'm far more receptive to this now and really it's it's really front of mind more regularly checking in on people like every day. And my hope is that that becomes a habit. And it's something that we do as we come out of of these lock downs as well. So, I actually think, for me that's been a positive from this pretty challenging experience over the recent time.

Karen K  

Yeah, that's something you know that seems to be a part of your leadership style as well. And just as you were talking maybe reflect back on what you're saying earlier in the episode about some of those leaders that you worked with so do you think that you've become more collaborative over time, because you had those experiences, or do you think that was in your personality anyway.

Lachy Gray  

Yeah, that's an interesting question, I think, no self assess, I think it's probably part of my personality. Yeah, but I think having that experience with those past bosses in that culture, kind of reinforced to me. The importance of the human element right. I think the human element can get lost sometimes in business. And I think short term thinking is at odds with, with our health and how we do things as humans like we're, we're here for the long run. So why not think in, in terms of playing a long game in business as well. So I think it's certainly reinforced that that side of things and that desire to check in on people and how are they going. And I've also been challenged by learning how I can best support people too. It's one thing to check on in on somebody but it's another you know, as we were talking about I think in the last episode, if they actually say hey I'm not okay. I'm still learning is the best way to respond to that for sure.

Karen K  

Yeah. And I think we're considering that collaboration, and that checking in, there's another side to that which is our customers right so we can focus on the customer experience data, and we can just look at numbers and say okay you know how many people actually you know completed our survey what kind of MPs do we get, you know how many Google reviews do we have, but then forget to personally check in with our clients and learn what's happening in their world, particularly at the moment that could help us to design better products and services.

Lachy Gray  

Yeah, for sure. I think data is only have a one party equation, isn't it. And I think we can find solace in in vanity metrics, where these are these numbers that we track that say they're going up as an increase here, that's what we want or a decrease here, if that's what we want and everything's good, but it's actually, I think the story that goes along with it. It's critical that helps us make sense of the data and, and so we know what to do with it. Along with those assumptions that we're making. And so, yeah, following up saying a net promoter score with. Yeah, perhaps a phone call or the customer to say Hey, I saw this net promoter score, I'd love to find out more about it. Again, I think it comes back to context and the context is so valuable, and squat illuminating to me, just the power of asking a few questions and just digging in and how things can change my perspective on something can change so fast, especially with customers, it's easy for me to make assumptions about what they're doing their business and why they do it but I don't know what I really know unless I ask, and that's something that we really reinforce especially on our product team to be asking the learners questions our customers questions rather than just assuming on their behalf.

Karen K  

Yeah so important. I've started to reflect on that a bit recently because I started as a customer with someone, a couple of months ago, that are starting to question whether I'm getting value out of this service or not. And that made me think about yeah actually the owner that signed me up in the first place. We've had no contact since that initial discussions and no one's actually checked in over this period. And that did make me think about my own business and okay well, do we do this as well and, you know, how do we actually make sure that we've got better checking processes as well. So it's interesting, actually when you, if you have a particular reaction as a customer, or something that you, it's actually important to go back and look at your own business as well and say okay, well, how do we do things differently.

Lachy Gray  

Yeah and it can be hard content, yes, turning the microscope on ourselves and what happens if we, if we feedback that's hard to take. And actually, I do wonder if this is a characteristic of an overachiever in which they just kind of assume that their way is right, their way is the best way because possibly it's worked for them in the past so why wouldn't it work for them in the future. Yeah, and I do think that that is true in my experience, and it, it has some really unfortunate side effects like this one where you're just making assumptions. On behalf of everyone around you, often to their detriment I think in the long run, but whether they see that or not is another thing so they might never sort of closed that feedback loop, which I think is a real shame.

Karen K  

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Because I think, you know, the idea of over achievement is something it's always been valued in our society so that people look at and think yes, you know, it's like it's a positive to say that person is an overachiever. But sometimes you know that the methods that you're using to get that are actually really damaging for you personally and for others. Yeah, so I guess that takes us to, you know, one of the actions for the people listening to this that I think that's one of the main ones is actually to consider your personal and leadership style so thinking about are there times that you're actually overusing your strengths. And do you need to be aware of when you need to actually dial it down a little bit. You know I think another thing we talked about was seeking feedback. And, you know I love one of the things that you taught me a couple of weeks ago about a book that you were reading which is actually you know being really specific with the feedback that you're asking for. Along with showing vulnerabilities So, being really specific in terms of I'm trying to work on ways to be more collaborative, can you think of any feedback as to how I can improve in that area, rather than just saying to people, Hey, do you have any feedback on the way that I can improve because that's quite difficult to give if there's a power imbalance there. And also reviewing, goal setting, you know, how are we communicating our results. What are our customer experience processes and how are we bringing that human element in anything else from your Lachy.

Lachy Gray  

Yeah, I certainly agree with those points. I think having a long term mindset can help a lot. I think about it in terms of sport, I think, you know this is an ultra marathon. For me it's not a sprint. And an athlete who gets injured gets behind. And the same is true in business so if we were a professional athlete. That's one of our top priorities is not to get injured, to be able to turn up every single day to train because we know that the benefits will compound over many many years. So, if we want to perform at a consistent level over a very long period, then we need to look after our health and the health of those around us. So our employees in business, our customers, our suppliers, but also our friends and family. And I do think as a leader we play a really important role in this because we're a role model in some ways, aren't we, and it's often more so are our actions that are worse. So, if we work all hours, push people really hard. Don't give feedback don't receive feedback, then that's the behavior that we're encouraging, which I think, you know, from a long term perspective is, is detrimental.

Karen K  

Yeah, I agree. You just reminded me of one of my pet peeves is when, when managers will tell their team, constantly by email or verbally how busy they are, and how, you know, I was up until 9pm Last night I worked all weekend. I've been on Zoom since seven o'clock this morning, or whatever it might be. Because all it does is just send this message to everybody. That's what's valued here that's how you're successful, and it's just not good. That's how you get burned out in organizations so it may be the people that are doing that are overachievers I just haven't identified that before. So, thank you for your insights, and links to the article that we found is from anything else we've discussed will be over on our website so that's yellow.com.au or amplify hr.com.au Just follow the links to the podcast section. And if you have received value from this episode, we would love it if you could leave a rating or review over at Apple podcasts,

Lachy Gray  

and coming up in the next episode we discuss ways to talk to someone at work, who has a strong belief, and we're certainly seeing this at the moment, in particular around vaccinations and whether to jab or not to jab. Looking forward to that learning curve.

Karen K  

Yeah, it's gonna be an interesting few months I think with that particular topic as well so that one is coming up in two weeks from now, so click on the subscribe button and you'll get notified of when that's available. Any final thoughts Lachy?

Lachy Gray  

I enjoyed the discussion and I think I'm going to be a bit more aware of overachievers in my life.

Karen K  

Me too, maybe. And thank you so much for joining us and we'll see you next time on the Make it Work podcast.

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