Keeping a cool head, and an open mind

Transcript

Lachy Gray  

Well today we're talking about how to have a conversation at work with someone who has a strong belief, the catalyst for this episode was an article I saw in the Guardian recently, which was really sharing conversations they had with family and friends about getting vaccinated it made for a pretty interesting reading. I think it's quite relevant for many of us, the discussion around vaccination in particular in the workplace. Well it's really playing out in the media every day. Questions such as should workplaces mandate that their staff get vaccinated. How do employees personal beliefs, inform this decision, it's a bit of a minefield. But I think anytime we disagree with someone on a topic or a belief, it can be challenging. It can feel uncomfortable, it can get defensive frustrated, angry, and we may even avoid that. This topic or discussion completely, you know, to save our energy and the relationship. And I think this is especially true at work. If we don't have the luxury of distancing ourselves from that person if they're in our team, or even better, if they're our manager or leader or, or a client. So, Karen to kick things off, I'm keen to hear if you come up against strong beliefs in your career.

Karen K  

Yeah, absolutely, and such an interesting topic because when I was thinking about these, I found myself in a situation many times over the years that I think it is part of being in HR, partly because leaders and owners of businesses are going to be very honest with us. You know as an HR partner so we often, you know, get them wrong beliefs and feelings that they may not be honest about with other people, but also because we're often the person that is looked to from other staff to say hey can you go and you know, talk to this manager for me or you know this has happened, I don't know how to approach it. So, a couple of examples that I was thinking of was one. You know, I remember, Manager, very loudly, announcing in the office that he wouldn't employ any more female staff because they just go on maternity leave and then come back part time which is you know thoroughly annoying.

Lachy Gray  

Wow. I have to say, I have heard this one too. Impossible workplaces,

Karen K  

yeah, yeah, and I know, hopefully there are people that hear this. Oh, gosh really does anyone do that and that they're, you know, shocked because you would expect that this wouldn't happen but you know he was just really frustrated because he came to me for advice he had a staff member who had had essentially back to back maternity leave, twice, and then was requesting part time work which of course she's willing titled to do, and you know he was just coming from that purely from a business angle that just doesn't work for me. So, you know, and that was just a really strong belief in terms of, I just need to get this particular work done, and you know why on earth do I have to worry about her personal circumstances. So, so that was really challenging one another, I was thinking of is. I was hired as a coach, which I don't do anymore and maybe this is part, you know, part of what you know my relationship with my clients is that you know it is a coaching relationship but I don't actually sell out myself as a coach anymore. And in this particular instance, I was hired to be a coach for a manager. And it wasn't until quite a few sessions down the track, that the owner got on the phone to me and was very aggressive and angry, because the manager's behavior, hadn't changed in six weeks. And you know what, we actually got to was that he wanted me to performance manage this manager so he was like well you need to tell him that he's not doing this and he's not doing that, and, and, and I didn't know that was what his expectation was of coaching so we were both getting really frustrated because of the differences of opinion on what a coach's role actually is. So, you know, so that I remember really clearly being on that phone call and you know when someone's really angry at you or for me anyway like it really rattles you when you find that you know your hands start to shake a little bit and the adrenaline starts to pump. And so I was really hyper aware of, you know how I was reacting and, you know, the fight or flight response comes through. So it was really trying to be quite clear and firm that, you know, this is what coaching is and it's not performance management so that was a really difficult situation I feel in my career.

Lachy Gray  

so challenging isn't it. It sounds like a mismatch in expectations, and, and it goes to show you so six weeks so were you both expecting a different thing from that engagement, and for the, for the owner to then react so emotionally at you I mean, I think that's that but that's common isn't it. Would you say that's, that's fairly typical whether there's a mismatch in expectations like that.

Karen K  

Oh yeah, absolutely, you know, and I think people that have exposure and understand personal development know that in six weeks, not a lot is going to happen in behavioral change. Like behavioral change is one of the hardest things to do so in six weeks you're going to have some goals you'll start making some progress but that that's pretty much all that's going to happen in that period of time. So, and, you know, I think in, In this instance, I was subcontracted to an organization so I was just kind of brought in for you know here's the scope of work and this is what you need to do, so I'd never had that initial conversation with the owner so I think that contributed to that mismatch of expectations in that I was getting third hand as well what the coaching assignment was, which doesn't help, but I still, you know, perhaps if it was a direct relationship we would have worked that out from the start that actually, you know, coaching is not going to help what you're looking for. But yeah it was it was difficult. And then I was trying to think of something, it was a little bit more recent because I'm using examples from Well back in my career so that people don't feel like oh she must be talking about us.

Karen K  

you know, but what over the last couple of years and I've seen this from more than one person is people that don't believe in COVID they don't believe in the you know the necessary responses that have been happening to COVID from a government standpoint. And so they become angry at the organization, because they're making their staff work from home, or they have a particular COVID safe player that says you. You don't need to get tested if you show symptoms, etc. So that's been something, you know that has been relatively common over the last year or so.

Lachy Gray  

So, such a tricky topic isn't it because when I, when I hear that I just sort of, I mean it's a bit of disbelief for me I try and shake to shake my head I'm trying to process that. Even the language like to something that you believe in or you choose not to believe it. And how, how have you approached you know situations like this in the past.

Karen K  

Yeah, it is difficult, especially you know the examples that have given you know they quite severe. I guess the samples but that's because they've stuck in my head, you know, and you know there is that initial shock and going okay, someone has just said something to me that is just so completely out of my realms of what I believe. So what do I need to do well. You know I have to acknowledge the view and the reasons because if I don't do that if I don't show that I'm listening. Then we're just going to be in a conflict situation we're just going to escalate really really quickly because if I don't acknowledge what they're saying and instead just launch into what have you thought about, then that just sounds like I'm just arguing with them. And you know, this is in a perfect world, I'm not saying I always do this. But the idea is that you know we should try and acknowledge the view so you know if I go back to the first example, you know Yeah, I understand that you know you've had this employee that's been on pretty much two years of not being in the office, because she's had to back to back, you know parentally periods is now asking for part time so I understand that that's difficult for you to manage your business and I understand it's difficult for you to try and think about what does that mean in the short, medium and long term. So, you know, just try to acknowledge it and listening and hopefully that will take some of that emotion intensity out of the conversation as well, and then providing a different point of view. So, you know, this is the reason why the legislation exists so this is the reason why, you know she's able to apply for part time this is the reason why you need to consider the part time work, and let's actually think about, are you not wanting to do this because it's a little bit more difficult to manage, or is it just not manageable, Because Because they're two really different things, and none of us like difficult things but sometimes what can seem difficult once we actually start and we give it a trial, it's not that difficult after all. So perhaps there are parts of the job that can be carved out that she can do that she's really skilled at, and we could have someone else do other parts that they might be more skilled and you're going to get more value out of the job. You know, and then agreeing on next steps which doesn't always mean that we actually agree on the issue either. So I think that old agree to disagree, which is what happened in that coaching examples so we were never going to agree on what the right outcome of that coaching was going to be so what we didn't agree on was the next steps. And you know, which ultimately ended up that, you know, I stopped doing this timing and said I just don't think that coaching is what you're looking for, you know what you're looking for is actually to implement a performance management process. So, you know, the old agree to disagree. Saying I guess because I think trying to change a strong belief, it's so difficult anyway and it's just it's never gonna happen in one conversation.

Lachy Gray  

Yeah so true. Nice. That approach really resonates with me, I mean, I'm not someone that enjoys conflicts. I much prefer for everyone understood well to be able to ask questions and to get to know each other's points of view, rather than being an adversarial yeah very emotionally charged conversation I really don't enjoy those. And one of the examples that I've thought back to was a few years ago now, and Yana was quite young, my business partner and I were pretty aligned on a lot of things. And yet, we got approached by a tobacco company. He wanted to do some work with us. And it turns out that our beliefs were quite different, on how to proceed or not proceed. And it was actually, it was really challenging because we're very close. And this was a really divisive topic for the two of us and one that we didn't know that we disagreed on. And so we had to find a way through. And a part of that was, you're really trying to listen to each other's perspectives, and then kind of paraphrasing and back, and it's, it's quite, it was really powerful to just that sense of feeling heard like that we could disagree but that he had heard what I had said. And then, we, The outcome was that we create an ethical charter. And we actually looked at a whole bunch of different industries, like gambling tobacco, weapons, mining, and so on. And we each rank them in terms of how accountable, we were, And it was just, it was actually a fantastic exercise in hindsight, and it helped us navigate what what could have become a real blocker in our relationship.

Karen K  

Yeah, that's awesome. I think that is such a good idea because these are the types of things that, like you said you don't even realize that it's a area that you disagree on until it comes up and then there's probably a bit of pressure on them because if you do have a client waiting in the wings, you know, all of a sudden it's like oh well, what are we doing now.

Lachy Gray  

Yeah, and I think it's it can be particularly hard when you, when it's a surprise. Neither review, expect the conversation to go that way, and then all of a sudden you're, you realize that you disagree on something that's actually really important to both of you. That can be extremely challenging. And I'm personally very interested in this area in difficult conversations in changing beliefs. And one of the places that I look to for insight is the difficult conversations, live in New York City, which has been going for thing for over 2025 years. It's very interesting they pair people up who vehemently disagree on a divisive topic like abortion, gun control, climate change, the death penalty, and they give them 20 minutes, to have a conversation. And then at the end, they have the option to write a joint statement about their common beliefs. And what I've found is that rather than framing a divisive issue in real black and white terms pro or anti is two sides of the same coin. If we frame it as complex, with lots of perspectives, then we're more likely to find common ground with people who have totally different opinion points of view to us. So I think that's really interesting, and what they actually do is they, they sort of pay you are, let's say you're going to talk about abortion. And before you meet, They give you an article on another divisive topic so on gun control. And that article is written in a very specific way, and they have 100% success. If the article, speaks to the complexity of the topic and the fact there are lots of perspectives. So I think it's really interesting and one area that I see this playing out in the media is around climate science. So, if you rely just on the media's perspective, you think probably that there are only two camps. There are people who believe in climate change and there are people who, who deny it. And that's actually not true. So the research suggests that there's at least six camps. And that more people are in that uncertain stage than they are, denial, but they, the deniers are far more vocal, and the media gives them a lot of attention. So I think that's quite interesting as a way to frame, anything that we, we sort of disagree on, I have a strong belief on that there are probably many different ways to look at it. What are your thoughts on that.

Karen K  

Yeah, I think what you just said about like if you're uncertain, you're most likely to be vocal Aren't you so I think that's a really good thing to consider is that the people that are really vocal, are the ones that have a strong belief but it's probably a lot more shades of gray in there like I said not to camp so it could be six different, you know, camps in there. The, the difficult conversations like that like that does, yeah that immediately brings up my fight or flight response I'm like oh god I hate to be sitting across from someone having to debate something, you know one of those topics are, yeah, just, I can see that, you know, where their benefit in terms of development, but that's really putting yourself in a really difficult vulnerable situation isn't it going into that. Absolutely. I'm not sure that I recommend for organizations to create their own version of those.

Lachy Gray  

Yeah, I would probably agree. So what does this mean for us in business and business is challenging. Isn't it because we don't have the same freedoms that we might, in our personal lives when we disagree with someone in our personal lives. Yeah, perhaps we just stopped talking to them. We had perhaps that's less so if they're family. But when we're when we're in business we have to work with people every single day. We actually have less options I think so. Couple of things I think we can, we can think about it. The first is really asking ourselves, what's the outcome that I'm hoping to achieve from a conversation with a colleague who has a strong belief, because the research suggests that it's unlikely that we're going to change their mind, especially if we just share facts. And it's actually more likely to encourage them to double down on what they already believe. So I think acknowledging that upfront can help, so take let's take that off the table, we're not we're not going to change your mind, and then ask you, well, do we need to talk these through to move forward on something. So is it is it blocking us, Or is it negatively impacting the team. So for example, I think you're what you shared before about the manager, commenting on the lady with maternity leave, if he's doing that in public in front of the whole team, then yeah, sure, that's probably, I would assume is negatively impacting the team and the culture so if that's true, then, that sounds like a conversation that we need to have and, and I probably find that as a feedback conversation where I actually focus less on the belief and more on the specific behavior and impacts. Rather than that, that belief itself and tries to take some of the sting out of it which I think aligns with your approach above current. Yeah,

Karen K  

and I think that's great advice and not just because it aligns with what. But I think in terms of really thinking about, or what is the outcome, because that's the important part, isn't it, so you know if someone says well you know I don't believe in getting a vaccination. Well, what's the outcome that you're looking for if you're a business that is actually required to have your staff, vaccinated, then that's a different outcome to a business that doesn't actually require that and is working remotely, for example.

Lachy Gray  

Absolutely. I think if you decide to have the conversation, doing some research to better understand their position. So you're more informed when you speak, can help a lot. And this is from personal experience, I know this can be very challenging. It's it's much easier, and we're more likely to look for evidence that confirms what we already believe, than it is to look for evidence that contradicts what we believe me, when I've tried to do this in the past. It feels wrong, because, especially if it's a strong belief, it might edit it, let's say it's a belief that we've had for many years. It almost becomes part of our identity so if you start to find evidence that contradicts that you can actually chip away at that foundation isn't on, and it's going to take time and energy to rethink and perhaps interesting what perhaps I was wrong. Or perhaps I don't have the full picture here. So, While I do you suggest this I do, I do personally do it sparingly because it does take a lot of time. And if we just choose that we've done, we will decide to have the conversation we've done some research just to understand the other the other side's position. Then, a great question to ask that I got from Adam Grant is a organizational psychologist is what would make you change your mind on this. I love this question because it can save us a lot of time and heartache. If they say nothing. My mind is made up. I am not going to change anything. Well, do we really want to have a conversation about this, is this something that we want to invest time in versus if they say, Yeah, well, now I need to see more evidence from people I trust that the vaccine is safe. Okay, well that's a different conversation about it sounds like the doors a little bit open there. What do you think about that Karen.

Karen K  

Yeah, it's a great question and it's one that I've actually, I have used since you told me about it when you were reading out of grad school I think again, because sometimes you do get to that point you just think, I really just don't know, like I feel like I could help this person, but their belief is so strong that they're not listening to me and I just don't know what to do next and I think in that situation that's a great question to ask. Because if you say you know what would make you change your mind on this. And I said well I'm not going to because this is the way it is, then, okay, well, you know, it's time to move on and you're coming back to your earlier point you know what's the outcome that we're looking for. So, let's say it's an employee that needs to be vaccinated, to go to work and they don't have a you know a health or another reason with the allowable from the government to allow them to go to work without the vaccination, and they say well, nothing is going to change my mind on it. Then okay now we know where we stand and we need to work out, or how do we actually, you know, agree to exit you from the business because there's no point in continuing to just talk about the government mandate and the statistics that that's just going to be a waste of time for everybody, and it's just going to get everybody probably even more, you know, angry and riled up. So yeah, I think it's a really good question to stick in the toolkit.

Lachy Gray  

And another thing I try and try and be mindful of is, is being open minded and curious, when someone has a strong belief that they share with me, I think, I think, often the beliefs we have can be held at a surface level so you know we've read a few things on social media or listen to our friends we've formed an opinion. But we haven't actually done the work really, and looked at both sides of that issue or topic. So then form that belief. So, when someone asked us questions about what we believe and what led us to that belief. How certain are we, it can actually be an effective subtle way for us to start thinking about, Well, why do I believe that. And this is how people who speak with parents about vaccinating the young kids approach to as to people who speak to Ku Klux Klan members about their beliefs. The common thread seems to be asking open ended questions with curiosity and really trying to listen without judging and which is very difficult, and not forcing an opinion or, or lots of facts as to why they're wrong. And where right. Your thoughts on that one.

Karen K  

Yeah, because I think we've all been in that situation at some point in our lives, haven't we, we've gotten into an argument with somebody because all we're doing is spouting facts that, you know, it doesn't get you anywhere. And I was just as you were talking I was thinking about it as a lot. There has been a lot in the media over the last couple of months around the Delta variant with children. And I've noticed it in our school WhatsApp groups a lot of parents starting to get quite anxious or really fearful about the concept of kids going back to school in term four. And so I actually started to do some research and look at some articles and because I was getting quite fearful as well to be honest. But when I actually started to dig through all of the research and that the actual facts and information I was like, You know what, this is actually a really different situation than what I thought it was that I shouldn't have that level of fee. So, so then you know the people that you know I'm friends with, you know the whole Whatsapp group but you know when they would say to me, you know, what are you thinking about this a lot or SDSR to do this research, you know, have you looked into anything around that before just sending them the links to the article you know because if I just said, you know, I don't have the same level of concern anymore because I've seen these facts, well that's unlikely. I think to help someone along the journey where it's actually to say, you know, tell me about the reasons why you're feeling that fear and anxiety because most of the times the same reasons that I had started to because you're just hearing little bits and pieces in the media, and you know our media is so fueled by fi, and you know and they that your kids so if you want anything that's got to be emotional, tied to be them that's what it is so, so I think that's, you know, a really great thing to keep in mind is just how do we actually be really open minded and ask those open questions and not just try and, you know, force facts down someone's throat because it's just not gonna work.

Lachy Gray  

Yeah, absolutely. And, And I guess being willing to change our mind, if, if the situation changes if the evidence changes. And I think that's really powerful. I think we probably don't say it enough, I think, especially in the media with politicians. I mean they hate changing their mind in public, because they're saying there's no being consistent, they're going back on their word and so on, which I think does a huge disservice, because actually, I mean, how can we be certain about about things I mean yeah, and I think this is interesting, for, for COVID, A lot of the state governments were very focused on zero cases that's changed now, they've had to change their mind on that, because it's no longer achievable. Yeah, and I think that's really important that we feel comfortable to change our mind. I think it's great to have a belief, and to explain have reasons for that belief but also be would be acknowledged that there are other perspectives and be willing to change our mind if, if the evidence changes. And one of the people that I really look to is Charlie Munger who is Warren Buffett's investment partner, and he says that any year that you don't throw away one of your best loved ideas is probably a wasted year. I love that. And one of the reasons is because I find it so hard to do. It's really really hard for me to throw away something that I put a lot of time and effort into into believing, but it's also quite liberating. So, in terms of some, some takeaways from from this session today, I think, considering what outcome. We're hoping to achieve from a conversation about a strong belief can help, and really asking is their belief, blocking us or is it negatively impacting the team. We can ask people who have strong beliefs, what would make you change your mind on this, to help inform how we approach that conversation. And if it's one that we're going to invest time and energy in and then trying to stay open minded and curious ourselves when we hear beliefs that we disagree with, or come across information or opinions that we think well that's ridiculous. And try to ask lots of open ended questions to find out more. So, we've got links to articles and anything else we've discussed on our websites amplify hr.com Today you and Yana, Comdata you to just follow the links to the podcast sections. If you've received value from this episode, we would love it if you could leave a rating or a review over at Apple podcasts.

Karen K  

Yeah, coming up in our next episode is a question around who is responsible for culture in your business. So I did a LinkedIn poll recently and I was surprised by the results and we've decided we're going to do that episode, a little differently. And we're each going to take an opposing viewpoint to that question,

Lachy Gray  

or look forward to it. That's coming up in two weeks from now, so click that subscribe button you will get notified of when it's available. Any final thoughts Karen.

Karen K  

I think I've really enjoyed this. You've given me a lot to reflect on and I'm going to force myself into discomfort and look more into the difficult conversations lab. I'd say what I can learn from that. So thanks for sharing that.

Lachy Gray  

Fantastic. Well thanks so much for joining us and we will see you next time on, the Make it Work podcast.