Who is Responsible for Workplace Culture?

Transcript

Karen K  

In today's episode we're talking about who is responsible for culture, and I did a poll recently on LinkedIn, asking that question. And the options that were given were either everyone, the owners slash CEO, human resources or other. And interestingly, 82% of people that responded to the poll said, everyone's responsible for culture in the business. But 14% said that owner slash CEO and 4%, human resources, and an argument could be made for all of these answers. So today we're going to actually take opposing views to really explore these similar to how we discussed in an earlier episode which was in series one episode five around the benefits of having a devil's advocate allocated. So today I'm going to take the position that everyone's responsible for culture in the business. And Lachy which position are you going to take today.

Lachy Gray  

I'm going to take the position of the owner or the CEO.

Karen K  

Excellent. So, what I was asked his question recently, You know I responded with everybody and I found this great story. Not long ago, of Marcus Rieu of guidewire, who wrote a memo to his employees, because he read some feedback about the company on Glassdoor and he found himself really annoyed because he had a physiological god of kindness. Again, philosophical, when I was asked this question recently, I responded with everybody and I wanted to share this great story that I read, not long ago, of Marcus Riou of guidewire. He wrote a memo to his employees prompted by some feedback, he read about his company on Glassdoor and he found himself really annoyed because he has a philosophical problem with the idea of employees critiquing their own company culture publicly. So I'm just going to read out just part of what he wrote. And it was, if you're an employee, you don't write a review of the company just like you don't write a review of being an American, you're a citizen of this country you can be critical of it but your responsibilities as a citizen, are not discharged by writing a review. What a citizen says is, I want to belong to this collectivity because I believe in its principles, I want it to succeed. And therefore, I have a duty citizenship has certain duties, and one of those duties, is that this organization continues to thrive. So I really admired that he took this stance and showed his belief that culture is the responsibility of everyone in his organization. I don't know that I've seen it time and time again where employees complain about the company but they don't recognize that they can be part of the solution. So, I've given my bit of a prayer Well, Lachy, I'd love for you to talk about your different view which is that the owners responsibility for culture in the workplace and your thoughts on that.

Lachy Gray  

Yeah, this is this is going to be go on. Look, I agree that everyone in organization is responsible for culture, though, I do think that without a leader or an electric group driving it. I don't think it has the same impact and I think building on the quote you shared from Marcus Ryu, as citizens of Australia were each responsible for contributing to Australian culture. Yeah we have politicians as our representatives who make decisions on our behalf, though whether or not we think they're doing a good job of it is another thing. I do think it companies leadership has a significant impact on the culture. I think it can be everyone's responsibility. Yet, if the leaders act in opposition to the culture then this code is created, and it might be that a groundswell of employee feedback and vocal opinions, encourage your leadership to change direction on culture, though this does require a significant investment of time and energy. With no guarantee of success, and not everyone is willing or able to do this. And I think that is highlighted in the quote as well that you shared because I think it's easier to be critical of something especially public publicly. Then, be part of the solution which can be can be challenging require a lot of time.

Karen K  

And this is, I think why I love this devil's advocate idea, because what a great point that you just made that the leader or the owner, ultimately is the one that has to stick around and they have more skin in the game when it comes to own the culture right.

Lachy Gray  

Absolutely. Yeah and I think, you know it's not until things get tough, that you get a true sense of culture. So things like difficult conversations, people unhappy about the state of things. There's harassment or bullying you know more serious things. Well I think while it's everyone's responsibility to stand up to these, and to call people out when they're doing the wrong thing. Ultimately, it's the leaders responsibility to resolve them.

Karen K  

Yeah, that's true, on an ethical and legal standpoint, absolutely.

Lachy Gray  

And remind me of the imp capitol, employees, speaking out against the senior executive Beau Pachauri, as an example. I think it took four years from the initial sexual harassment complaint against him for real change to happen. And from what I read in the media in that time it was, was carnage, as 1000s of staff left along with the chairman of the board. And it was reported that was huge frustration with management over the toxic culture, and the band aid solutions that were applied, you know, within those four years.

Karen K  

Yeah, yeah, it's a great example because this kind of goes into one of our last episodes around, you know, when we don't think about the decisions that we're making all the rules that are in place because from an external point of view. people were looking at this and say, well you've got somebody that's been accused of sexual harassment you've actually got some form of settlement there so we can only assume something happened, we don't know, but from a perception point of view, something happens, and now you've promoted him. And, you know, we've unfortunately seen similar examples with Sony Music and oboe and, you know, I remember, with over the incoming CEO said that he spent his first year, just working on the culture of the company because of what had happened, you know, with the damage that has been done there. So, given everything that we've been discussing, can I ask your thoughts when you first started, ya know, in regards to who owns the culture.

Lachy Gray  

Yeah, it's an interesting question because I don't think you know Mark and I explicitly talked about it, though. We did talk about being intentional with the culture, you know, we really had a laundry list of things that we wanted the culture to be, I guess based on our experience, you know, in our past jobs. But we also acknowledge that culture is bigger than the two of us. So we invested in things like regular roleplay sessions to practice, positive and constructive feedback, which I think for us are really foundational to culture, you know mandated everyone has a regular one on one with their team they, You know safe space to check in credit decision template to encourage anyone to make a significant decision shared financials, with the whole team so I think these were elements of a healthy culture, and one that, that we wanted to be a part of ourselves. So, I actually think it's more about the leaders, perhaps to find the principles and values of the business. And then, everyone has the opportunity and the autonomy to to achieve and how they see fit. So for us that's things like checking your ego, trying to approach things with a beginner's mind and being really open and curious. Sharing needs no information not not holding on to it, raising issues and disagreements at the time, rather than months down the track.

Karen K  

Yeah, and I think they're great points that a leader needs to set the tone and the expectations around what the goal culture is that you want. I still think I'm on the side of believing that everyone in the business has a responsibility to contribute, and own being a part of what the culture becomes though. And I remember talking to an owner of a business, many months ago, around their engagement survey results which are pretty good, but there was some areas that that were really surprised by that came through a bit lower, and it will go through the action plan of what we were going to do to try and improve the workplace, you know, ultimately improve the results for the next year but improve the culture of the workplace. And the question to me was you know these are all great things that we can do, but how do we get the staff to own this and get the expectations for the culture as well. And I thought that was a really good question because, sometimes, and not in that case, but in some times when the culture does get bad enough, you know, employees to just throw their hands up and say well, this isn't my problem. You know, I, I don't like this I don't want to be a part of it and, you know, like I said before they vote with their feet right, so. So I think that, yeah, the leaders can set the expectations of the culture, politics rotation is that we're all in it together. Does it ultimately help with the culture, what are your thoughts.

Lachy Gray  

Yeah, to show I agree with that, I think, no for me personally, as a business owner, I find it difficult to remind myself that other people will never be invested as as invested as I am. And I don't know what that looks like I do not know what it looks like to be an employee, and I never will. So the way I look at culture and, you know, I'm super keen for everyone to get involved and take initiative and come up with ideas, though, from their perspective. They're doing your job, and they're doing really well, and they contribute in lots of ways, like where does their responsibility. start and end to the culture, because it's not a tangible thing is it, it's, it's a yeah it's a set of behaviors that, that we will perform day in, day out, that we give feedback on. And the changes. This is what I've learned is changes over time, as new people come into the business. So initially I thought, well, we'll set up the culture, and away we go. And over time I realized that that's not true at all. That you had these foundational sort of principles and values but everybody that comes in, adds their own flavor and just changes and evolves it a little bit. So I think that's really interesting as well and different people have a different level of interest in the culture and in contributing to it as well. So, being mindful of that and not expecting everybody to want to talk about the latest things all the time and come up with ideas and beyond the social committee and the party planning committee and and all the things that we all really enjoy that. They are additional to their job and it requires time and energy, which they may or may not want to invest.

Karen K  

Yeah, that's so true and I think that the other way that we see culture significantly change is when there are big decisions made by the business, and here we're seeing a lot of big decisions with businesses over the last year, any months getting into two years now in terms of how they work and where they work and yeah redundancies and you know all of that, that they might just be a decision at a point in time, but they do have a huge impact of culture for the future. And the way that I most often see these is in those engagement surveys where we're asking questions around behaviors in the workplace and the question around you know do you see bullying in the workplace and owners are always very shocked and saddened and upset when there's at least one person that will say that they have seen bullying in the workplace, but we don't know when, you know, and that's really the important part is trying to understand is it current was it five years ago was it dealt with what was your what was the process that was taken, because if they saw something a few years ago and they didn't feel that it was managed appropriately then that's hung on to and then that becomes part of your culture in the future where we accept that type of behavior. And in there really unsaid things, and they're, they're very hard to, to bring to the surface, but you know, is an example on your side as to why leadership for you know could have real control over the culture i because employees can't do much in those types of situations that rely on, on the leaders to bring a resolution.

Lachy Gray  

Is it easy isn't it. So I mean, if, if the culture is unhealthy, and people are unhappy. And everyone's responsible. Then, who starts the change.

Karen K  

Yeah, that's okay you've put me in a spot now because the start this starts to change it has to be the leader doesn't it. So because if an employee or employees are trying to start the change. They're not going to get very far. If the leadership is not acting in line with that change. I think you've just won the debate. No, I think, you know, it's definitely situational Isn't it like it's got to be, you know, the leaders that setting the tone for the culture and watching it and being aware of when it starts to slide and being responsible for bringing it back up but all, you know, all employees along that ride, having an ownership role.

Lachy Gray  

Yeah, yeah, absolutely, and reminds me of a right RACI chart Ric II responsible accountable consulted and informed that you can have a lot of responsible people but it is, it is no one who is accountable, then it's, I think it's quite difficult to change because you have that effect a bystander effect where everyone's kind of looking at everyone else, and saying, Well, someone else could change this or I on one person needs 1000 person business, how much change can I actually contribute to. So I actually think it's a really probably it's a bit of a bit of Brainer requires very clear communication and dialogue and ownership. Doesn't it because I think, to feel responsible and to want to be responsible, you've got to have ownership and feel supported and trusted to contribute to the culture. So it's a, it's a real balance, I think,

Karen K  

yeah, that's why it's always been a pet peeve of mine, not that. I like the title of Human Resources either. But, you know, moving to these people on culture ID is also a bit of a pet peeve because it does enable people to say, well people and culture is now the responsibility of that one person. Wish It just can't be, and you know and I have seen that happen where leaders will just say oh, you know, that's, that's not my problem that's you know, that HR that people culture person over there to take care of. So yeah, there's a bit of an identity crisis within our profession, maybe at some point, someone will come up with a better word for it, but yeah, I think, you know, one of the ways that we do see this at the moment, particularly in small businesses is that we start our business. And the first thing we do is we focus on the finances because we don't have the money coming in, we don't have profits or we don't have a business so that's a natural first focus for businesses and then you know we move into technology and customer experience and marketing and you know how do we get more customers. But we forget about culture because we just think I've heard this from people that you know was hire really good people, and the carts will take care of itself. So, we don't become intentional with the culture, and then before we know it, it can really easily lead to dysfunction, and toxicity.

Lachy Gray  

Yeah, it's a really good point. And it can be, I think, really far from my mind when we're starting out, you know, it's something that we'll tackle later. Once the business is up and running, I mean surely we've got approved revenue first because without that we don't have a business. Yeah. And I think perhaps it goes into the same bucket as profit. You know, I will profit will come in the future. Once the business is up and running, we get everything else sorted. But I think, you know, businesses about people and how people interact and treat each other is, is the culture. So, certainly in my experience, I think it was not done in a deliberate way early. Then, as you say, dysfunction can breed, and I imagine it's difficult to turn that ship around. Once you know if you're a few years in and the team's really growing fast, to realize if you've got a culture problem that's perhaps when you hire people and culture expert. They go well. It's in the job title. Though solve it. So I agree with you I've, I've always wondered about the title like Well firstly Human Resources is terrible to strips the humaneness from, ironically, isn't a bad. Yeah, and then people in culture is a bit of a misnomer. Isn't it because, can we say that one person owns culture was responsible for cultural, well no, that's what we've been talking about today so I'm interested in your thoughts in future on how your, your profession should be labeled

Karen K  

Yeah, I think we probably need a three hour episode. Yeah but you know, and the other side of the coin is that maybe as we start a business, we take complete ownership for the culture but then we don't invite thoughts and input from everyone in the business.

Lachy Gray  

Yeah, I think this is a mistake as well. And again I think culture is more than one person. So I do think it's how a group of people, interact with and treat each other. Even if the leader is responsible for and really driving it. They can't be in every conversation happens at work, especially when we're working remotely, they're just not there. So, the culture is ultimately how everybody else in the business, treat each other. And I do think that requires the trust. Trust in support, and, and really communication, what does our culture look like, how do we want to treat each other. And I think, for me, I really enjoy onboarding new staff, because it's actually an opportunity to talk about it. It's not one of those things that we talk about day to day, like, what are the behaviors that we accept what are the behaviors that we don't and we'll provide feedback on when we see them. But for a new person, it's a great opportunity to say well, this is how we do things this is what's important to us. This is what we encourage you to speak up about. And that's often when I've got the greatest insight into our culture and then perhaps those areas for improvement, too.

Karen K  

Yeah, that's so important because they're the unsaid thing, so the more that you can set up that expectation from the start. Then you create that safe space for people to speak out, if they're saying things that they know that you've said, are not acceptable around here. So I think that's a great, you know, really takeaway for, for our listeners today because onboarding, has a lot of benefits but that's definitely one of them, and I think considering what processes or frameworks that you have in your business at the moment to gauge your culture, and that's things like onboarding but also how are you listening, what meetings are you having a survey and your staff are you creating, you know, safe options for people to be able to come forward with what they're thinking, you know, and I think the other takeaway I'd like to put out there is to reflect on who you think is responsible for culture in your business, and then with that in mind. How do you communicate that responsibility and the actions that are needed to support that. And of course, once you have worked that out then how do you know when you're successful. Takeaways.

Lachy Gray  

Yeah, yeah, I think, I think it's it's the conversation. It's talking about it with your organization, what do you think and talk about our culture, warts and all. Because I think actually, the greatest improvements or benefits are when we identify areas of discontent and disagreement and pain, and we can talk about them first of all, there's a great it's a great process in itself, of sharing that. And then talking about well what does that look like, because I think going back to the quote at the start that encourages people to have our initiative and be part of the future, which is really powerful because I think when you feel like you're owning something you're part of something, then you're, you will naturally take responsibility for it. And I think that is key to creating a healthy culture.

Karen K  

Yeah, I couldn't have said it better myself. So, links to what we've discussed will be over on our website, just follow the link to the podcast section. That's it yellow.com.au and amplify hr.com to you. And if you've received value from the episode, we'd love it if you could leave a rating or review over at Apple podcasts, and I would like to give a shout out to Jess who did just that. She said the podcast is on point with discussion on current issues with two knowledgeable and interesting host so we really appreciate that. Thank you, Jess.

Lachy Gray  

Yeah. Thanks, Jess. That's lovely. Coming up in the next episode we discussed mental well being and how we can talk about a work, and we actually interview a guest Kathleen Wynne who's a psychotherapist and executive coach and she talks about how we can enable those conversations, how we can develop mental first aid kit, while also putting some appropriate boundaries in place.

Karen K  

Yes that's coming up in two weeks from now, so click the subscribe button and you'll get notified of when that's available. Any final thoughts from you Lachy.

Lachy Gray  

Oh, I'm going to be talking with Tim about the culture.

Karen K  

And thank you so much for joining us and we'll see you next time on the Make it Work podcast.