Returning to Work in a (Somewhat) COVID-Normal World

Transcript

Karen K  

Make sure that's on Okay, let me press the record button on here.

okay

Karen K  

yep you're good. I'm all good.

Lachy Gray  

Three, two, as the great COVID Experiment finishes new experiment begins returning to work in a somewhat post COVID world. The past few months and years many of us have tried new ways of working and enjoyed and been fatigued and frustrated by them, I guess and equal parts. A big unknown as to what extent the shifts like working remotely are here to stay. For some groups such as working Mums the flexibility that working through COVID introduced was a welcome change and, and probably one they'd like to keep. Others can't wait to get into the office and to be around friends and colleagues again, came across a study recently by McKinsey out of the US. They said that one out of every three employees they surveyed said their return to the workplace had a negative impact on their mental health through feelings of anxiety, depression or general distress, while others are anxious about social interaction. So it certainly hasn't been a cakewalk, returning to work, and I'm really keen to hear your perspective on this current What are you seeing at the moment?

Karen K  

Yeah, I'd set up what I'm saying is confusion. I didn't put it and I think yeah, that stat that you just said one in three, it's like made me go well, because you respect so much about the mental health impacts of working remotely. And now I say, well, one out of three have a negative impact of the mental health in returning to the physical workplace. So it's that's a reason for confusion right there, isn't it as a business owner, you're thinking well, what's that what's the right thing to do? Yeah, I think on the positive sides, there's been lots of positives about this as well as we're seeing a lot of people being able to experiment and I'm really enjoying at the moment watching organizations that are really open to experimenting and saying, Okay, well, the hybrid thing last year of everyone must come in two days a week didn't really work. But we don't want to work fully remotely because that didn't really work. And we did that through lockdowns either it was kind of like a bit of a, you know, a band aid but it didn't actually work for our business. And we all don't want to go back five days a week. So what do we do so far? I'm think that's actually a really good thing to see organizations experimenting and talking with their employees about what those experiments might look like. And being really open that whatever they decide on might just be for a short period of time until they can work out if it actually works for them or not. So I think that's a good thing and something I haven't actually seen before. And learning from those mistakes as well. Like I've had a lot of conversations with businesses and have really taken a step back because they've lost a lot of people this year. And realize that year last year was not good for them. Because it's hard, isn't it when you in that situation when the pandemic was announced and you don't know what's happening with your industry. I don't have to be locked down. So businesses made the best decisions that they could at the time, but, you know, did it perhaps bring people along for that ride or really think through the longer term impacts and so there's been a little bit of, I guess, made a copper and learning from mistakes as well. Which I guess goes into experimentation, doesn't it if you're gonna learn from mistakes, and then you're more open to that experimentation?

Lachy Gray  

Yeah, and I think I think it's a good point and also the feedback loop was so short, wasn't it? Because we were finding out in real time, how decisions that we were making were, were being received, and then they were changing again, yes. And everyone was doing at the same time, so very unique. From that perspective. Very, very unusual time.

Karen K  

So true. You've got so many businesses all tied to the same thing at the same time. You don't normally get that. Yeah, and I think you know, people are really aware of, you know, that term, the great resignation, which we've spoken about in a previous episode. And you know, there are some people that believe it's going to happen there are other people that don't believe it's going to happen in Australia, but whichever way you look at it, there's an awareness at the moment of wanting to retain staff if it being intentional about that, which is great. It really I think it's just the flexibility of businesses. So this week, we went into the city as a team for offsite strategy Day, which we haven't done for a while because, obviously, but it's something that we do try to quarterly and so we use co working spaces for that because we all come from different parts of Sydney. And at the end of the day, the owner of co working space actually came over to talk to us and said, you know, would you want to use this space more often? What are you doing next year and it was just he was so engaging and really trying to understand, like what our business was trying to do or trying to achieve, so that he could change his business to suit clients and I just have not had that before like that. And and I think it was not just that he was asking the questions, but also my willingness to answer it. You know, it wasn't going he's just trying to sell me something. It's like, No, I know, this person is genuinely trying to work out what's the best option for my business next year. And, you know, he was already talking about the differences that they've made to make it much more flexible, so that people do feel comfortable in renting out co working spaces, and he had some fantastic ideas. So I found that really interesting. Probably a suburb that's just interested in business anyway, so that was really up my alley to have that conversation. And the other thing that I noticed actually which is related, so we also went to breakfast before that this way, but I've also noticed when I've been in the city recently, there's just so much appreciation from people when you go into their cafe or their restaurant. You don't I think it is those particular industries, perhaps your hospitality and tourism and events. They're just so happy to see you like there's just so much appreciation for all thank you for coming to, you know, see us today and to buy something from us. So it's kind of like this, I don't know just a little bit more. gratitude and appreciation, this idea that we're all in it together. Yeah, it's just been really interesting for me as well. And I think that they are positives.

Lachy Gray  

Yeah, absolutely. It's like it's a human side to be, isn't it which can get lost on focusing on numbers and metrics and so on. I had a similar experience. I was in North Sydney on Wednesday, and went to the local cafe which is half of the seats have gone and they were the same family run business. Just super grateful that we went there for a morning coffee to meet we went back for lunch and just to have that connection and also for the business owner to say like it's really hard is not the same number of people coming in and they might never return. Yeah. So like to acknowledge that and to share that vulnerability. With us, I think spoke volumes but it's also part of a, I think, a broader theme, which is that, yeah, it's been really hard and it's okay to share that because we're all going through something.

Karen K  

Yes. Yeah, that's so true. Whereas I think two years ago, that would have been seen as an oversharing, wouldn't it? Yeah, yeah.

Lachy Gray  

Absolutely. Yeah. And I wouldn't have been as receptive to you, why are you telling me but now if that empathy,

Karen K  

yes. Yeah. So I think on the downside, you know, they're definitely still organizations that haven't changed. And won't change. Which, personally, I think is a shame and somewhat short sighted and I think that they'll really feel the impacts of that over the next probably one to two years. And I think I got a lot of downside but I'm going to call it an optimistic uncertainty.

Lachy Gray  

That's interesting.

Karen K  

Because there's still a lot of uncertainty out there, which is obviously the downside, but yeah, I feel like people are more optimistic about it. Now because we've gone through this just one change because you how many changes now in the last 18 months so so the the downside is it? Yes, there's still going to be a lot of uncertainty, particularly with our borders being open for the first time to international visitors very soon. You know, who knows what's gonna happen with the state borders, which is a question for businesses that are trying to run with staff across the country. How do you how do you do that when you don't know what's going to happen from one day to the next with the state borders. So so there's still you know, unfortunate thing, it's really hard to run a business but I think there's more optimism in terms of we have gotten through this so far. And we can do it again.

Lachy Gray  

Absolutely, yeah. And it is a shame that there are some organizations who have embraced this as an opportunity to do things differently, but I guess that's always the case, isn't it? Yeah. That's just how humans are. though. I think he that will be an interesting one to watch. Because, from what I've seen, when we've been hiring this year, candidates are looking for flexibility or looking for remote work, as their criteria has changed in an organization that they're looking for. And I do wonder if that will put pressure on these organizations who are somewhat resistant to change to have to do it to stay competitive. And my assumption is that is that will be the case. Yes,

Karen K  

especially as the borders are open, and we get more workers coming into the country. So I think, you know, yeah, it becomes hard because they're also looking for all of that flexibility, and they will have choice, particularly in some spaces like it where it's just like crazy Hunger Games. At the moment for who could get the best. So, yeah, as an employer, you got to be able to offer things that your market wants, which Yeah, we'll be interesting to see how that goes over the next. I would say one to two years. I think it's gonna take some time to normalize as well. Yeah. We should make a date in our calendar for two years and re listen to this episode. And say what's happened?

Lachy Gray  

What makes some predictions? Oh, yeah. What's the Visegrad Warren Buffett quote around that that forecast tell you more about the forecaster than anything else? I love that is so true. Absolutely. Yeah. It was interesting being back in in northern New where we used to have an office before we went fully remote last year, and just seeing just it's just far less people are gonna be thinking about, well, what does that mean for office space? Like less people are coming in this less desks? Are we using this opportunity to ask what space best serves the staff when they do come in? And I came across a so a study by the committee for Sydney, which is a think tank representing a bunch of organizations such as unis house in the hospitality constructions its payment. So these organizations combined employ about 640,000 workers across Australia and now totally just asking them how is the working landscape changed for them. And it's found that 51% of bosses expected workers will commute to the office for just three days a week. Then those 36% expect those days to be between Tuesday and Thursday. So I thought this was pretty interesting. Because I have heard about Mondays and Fridays, especially Friday, I think people are very keen to, to work from home and initially there was some pretty strong resistance to that. But it seems as though there is some normalizing of sort of flexibility in terms of Sunday's out of the office Sundays in the office. What are you seeing in that regard?

Karen K  

Yeah, it's interesting that they're still thinking three days a week. So I'm actually seeing a lot of organizations. I guess, somewhat reluctantly, in some cases, saying, well, actually, it's probably only going to be two. And you know, even some that I've spoken to said we can get a day a fortnight at the moment and that's that's what we need. So I think there's an understanding not I want to get to a vaccination conversation because that will take more than this episode but but you know, that does adding an element to it where the people are happy to be out or even just comfortable to be out and on transport or working alongside unvaccinated staff. is a huge consideration for a lot of companies right now. Which is why I think many of them they are being more flexible with that idea that well, maybe it's not three days a week, maybe it's less than that. So that's interesting that that it was so hard 51% So three days per week. And yeah, the Tuesday or Thursday Yeah, definitely. I even saw a poll on LinkedIn someone did the other day that said, You know what day of the week would you prefer to work from home and the highest percentage was Friday followed by Monday. And you know, I think before the last lockdown there was already talk about you know, Friday night drinks are dead than other Thursday night drinks. So, yeah, I think, you know, like I said, I'm seeing organizations, you know, take notice of these studies have been open to those new ideas. They're willing to test them out. But I think at the end of the day, it's so individual to your company and to the employees in your company. That is as helpful as it is to read these studies and talk to other business owners and understand what's happening. I think it's so individual to that particular organization. Like I know for me, I used to love working at home on a Monday because it was like my get stuff done, like my planning day. Whereas I'm really happy to go to the city on a Friday because the trains are quieter. So and I think everyone's gonna have their little things like that that are just different for them depending on their circumstances.

Lachy Gray  

So true, what the kids are doing the partners doing, you know, there's so many factors out there. And the other thing I think about too is what about all those businesses that rely on people coming into the office? cafes, restaurants, even hairdressers, barbers and so on. So they pretty much at the mercy now, of each individual businesses decisions on this, which will also change could change will change, even day to day I guess. So, to plan for that and try to navigate a small business. Through those changes must be extremely difficult.

Karen K  

Yeah, absolutely. And that's why Yeah, we're saying the government trying to get people back into the office. Yeah, they're trying to help these businesses, particularly in the CBD. And I know just walking through the hunter connection, we Wynyard about two weeks ago. And you know, most of those shops were were empty closed. Yeah, it's and you see a lot of that walking around the city at the moment.

Lachy Gray  

Yeah, and I did read a one of the ideas I think, in Sydney was the city of Sydney had was perhaps subsidizing the public transport so that because people aren't using it as often, if it's a bit cheaper, will that help? Encourage people to come in? It's I mean, it's great to say that there's some of these out of box ideas that yeah, two years ago would never have happened.

Karen K  

Yeah. I guess I wouldn't, because parking in the city at the moment is 10 bucks. There's a lot of traffic on the road, that's for sure. Yeah, but Yeah, but you're right. It's interesting that they're new ideas. And I think that that is what has to happen for every business of the government right now is what what are the ways that we need to do things differently to help businesses survive?

Lachy Gray  

Yeah, so I guess, yeah, the impact on on businesses that rely on people coming to work is is one consequence of this new flexibility. I think another is we've touched on this in previous episode, how do you, I guess, maintain fairness between staff who are in the office and those who aren't? And one of the concerns around this, it's been raised is that for those staff who are remote, they will receive less face to face time with their colleagues but also with their leaders say, than people who are in the office. I think this is really tricky. And I guess it's the same for new starters, joining an organization if they're starting remote, and most of their first weeks or months are remote. They come in the office say one day a week but it might not be on the same day that say there are leaders out there other ladies in the business are there. Does that put them at a disadvantage?

Karen K  

Yeah, I think it's particularly tough for people that are early on in their careers as well. Because they really want that face to face. Time. And I've also seen this in some organizations where it's just exacerbated feelings of favoritism. So people that are more willing or more able to put in face to face time because they're they're just physically seen by the leaders then perhaps they get more recognition, they get better projects, they're more likely to get that promotion. And that's really difficult to cut through actually because the leaders wouldn't even most of the time realize that they're doing it because it's such a subconscious thing. We We like people more that we say more often. That's that's the truth, really. So it's tough.

Lachy Gray  

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I wonder, sort of what behaviors it encourages then from say, those who are remote people, they try and work longer hours to show that they're putting in more of an effort, and then this vicious kind of cycle begins. That if it's not addressed, be extremely demotivating and damaging to the culture so it's things like that. I think that these days, I mean, I guess in some aspects they've I have been around because we have been working remotely before COVID. But not at this scale. I guess I'm not the speed at which has happened. And then this new sort of zone of zone we're in now. where businesses are experimenting with return to work, and it's going to change how we incorporate scenarios like this to try and keep it fair. So I guess one of the questions for me at the moment is how can we, as business leaders, help out staff navigate return to work? I think the point that you made at the beginning is a great one, but let's acknowledge that we're all learning. We don't know what the future looks like. And we should probably just accept that it's going to include a lot of change. And we're going to make mistakes and mistakes are a critical part of learning. That's just the way it is. So I think just to be okay with that. And that, you know, we're not always going to make the right decision by everyone in despite the best intentions. But if we keep that communication, loop open, to hear the feedback and then iterate again. And I think also, just ease back into socializing in an office environment. I've read a few articles from Eva's people who say they are extroverts who say that they've gone too high the other way and picking up all the all the social services they can have for lunch, go for dinner, and they're just super dry. Let's think that's important to acknowledge to swing the other way quite easily. But I guess, also that it's it's okay to share our experience of of this period that we're in that we might be feeling anxious that we might stress that's normal. Each of us has had a unique experience, I guess, and we'll continue to do so. And that could cover the full gamut of emotions from happiness through to frustration and anxiety even in the space of a day. And also of grief. If there's a feeling of a loss of something that was special to us during that time. And it might have been more time with our kids or with our partner with a pet or just time to ourself that we weren't commuting like we might really feel that. So I think sharing that at work is is important, and talk about what is working and what's not so that we can continue to iterate into the future.

Karen K  

Yeah, I think they're all really good. Points. And part of all this is being aware of those things, isn't it and just talking about the pros and cons and talking about the limitations and like, we were just saying with that potential for favoritism, like just being aware of that and talking about it, as a leadership team in a business can go a long way to try and to prevent it as well. So I think that's really important. And that's, I guess, it comes back to just being really open and really clear with everyone that however we're working right now isn't forever. It'll continue to evolve. And we need to just keep talking to our people to understand what's going on, but also to continue looking outside of our own organization as well, because there will be companies that will come up with fantastic ideas that you can think of, oh, yeah, that's the bit that we're missing. I need to take that and I think that that is going to be really critical over the next couple of years is to keep doing that and not to kind of just sink into this. Our This is now how I work because it will keep evolving and we've seen the third or the fourth wave now in Europe. And as much as none of us want to say The L Word. It we probably will have some form of localized locked at some point that will impact on our business even if it's as simple as which I've experienced our school closing down and then you know, some families in needing to isolate for two weeks. So you know, this is not going away anytime soon. And it has huge impacts on our businesses. I think it's very important to keep it on the agenda and to keep thinking about and keep talking about it.

Lachy Gray  

Yeah, absolutely. And I guess being mindful of, of our energy as well as we head into the Christmas period, which is traditionally extremely busy as it is let alone for most of us coming out of some sort of lockdown and being really keen to catch up with friends and family again, just continuing to look after ourselves. So we're not all totally fatigued. Post Christmas. We want to be rested up and be able to come back into 2022 for a fresh start.

Karen K  

Yeah, so we need a holiday from a holiday. Yeah.

Lachy Gray  

Well, links to articles and anything else we've discussed will be over on our websites amplify HR Comdata you and Yana Comdata you if you receive value from this episode, we would love it if you could leave a rating or review over at Apple podcasts.

Karen K  

Yeah, and coming up in the next episode is actually a recap of this series because we are at the end of the year. So it will be last episode for a series two.

Lachy Gray  

So I think that's coming up in two weeks from now. So if you click the subscribe button you will get notified when that is available. He FINAL THOUGHTS Karen?

Karen K  

No, I just I really enjoyed once again having this conversation with you. And hopefully it's helped other people to start thinking about what their workplace looks like in 2022.

Lachy Gray  

Fantastic. Well, thanks so much for joining us, and we'll see you next time on the Make It Work podcast. Thanks