Should your workplace be your 'family'?

Transcript

Lachy Gray  00:01

In this episode, we're going to talk about the workplace as a family, which is the idea that we spend a significant portion of our time at work with our colleagues. And over time, we build up context and relationships that only make sense to those colleagues. And this familiarity and sense of understanding can mirror what you find in a family, which is another group of people that most of us spend a fair portion of time with. And I used to think having a family at work was something to strive for. That was a good thing. You're in an environment that understands and supports you wants the best for you, and you create strong bonds. However, over time, I've changed my mind. And I think the line between professional and personal can become word and unwavering loyalty and duty. Which, in some cases, hallmarks of a family aren't always conducive to a healthy culture at work. And the family in inverted commas. Makes me think of a mafia family. You know, you're in the family business and you're never leaving. So I look forward to exploring this topic with you Karen.

Karen Kirton  01:10

Thanks Lachy and I'm really excited to be back in season three and having these conversations with you. And on this topic, I did say that you ran a LinkedIn poll that asked how do you view your workplace relationships? Tell us a little bit about the poll. And what the answer choices were?

Lachy Gray  01:31

In the answer choices, where as family as colleagues, as friends, or other, we've got to go to other. So Karen, what's your guess as to which answer received the most votes?

Karen Kirton  01:44

So I may have cheated already and already looked at they're not quite my fault. LinkedIn now notified when the poll closed, so I had to check it out. I did think that family would be higher because it's something I hear fairly often from business owners when they describe their culture or the business that they're trying to build. But I won't steal your thunder and go into spoilers, so give us the results.

Lachy Gray  02:15

So I was assigned, I was surprised to so why aren't fun 61% was described their workplace relationships as colleagues. 22% is friends family was weighed down at 9% time with other so I was expecting family to be much higher. I guess just anecdotally, hearing how friends describe the workplace.

Karen Kirton  02:46

Do you think that was impacted by the politic is lucky because I hear business owners describe their businesses in a fair way and I use it the same thing, but maybe employees don't do that. Maybe that's why there might have been a difference in the poll. What do you think were the poll takers? Did you have a look at that?

Lachy Gray  03:06

Yeah, well, it was a it was a first grade, but I think that it probably was weighted more to employees than business owners. So that's a really good point. And I was thinking back, you know, when I was working, my last job as an employee at a digital agency in Sydney, that environment felt like a family, especially the digital project management team, and I was saying it's actually part of what kept me there so long. We all got along really well. We hung out together outside of work, we trusted each other. And it wasn't until I was given the opportunity to lead that team that things got harder for me. And I discovered that managing someone I was good mates with was difficult. And I felt loyal to them as a friend and to the company as my employer. And that family environment had a way of pushing conversations that that needs to happen below the surface. So I almost felt trapped. So I think for me, I probably described that environment as a family, yet over time, I've kind of changed my perspective on it.

Karen Kirton  04:15

It's a really good point. Can we often talk about, you know, agency land and agency world because it is a bit of a different environment. And I think when we have that, like family scenario, if you were to step out of those family expectations by having a difficult conversation, then you'd be that crazy second cousin, wouldn't you like it's, it becomes a difficult situation, to know the way your places because you've been promoted in the family so to speak. And suddenly, I have seen is, it's really tough for team members when they become a leader when there are those struggle friendships. I think that it's always hard to know what that line is. And I've certainly seen a number of times where people feel that they just get emotionally taking advantage of the emotional punching bag kind of comes up. Like I feel like I can't really set the objectives with that person or set expectations or have boundaries because I know them so well. I know they're here was to go to barbecues with them. I see them on the weekends. So it does make it really hard and therefore people become really hesitant about having those difficult conversations. And I guess we'd potentially really effectively leaving the business.

Lachy Gray  05:41

Yeah, that's certainly been my experience. And I was reflecting on it. I think I felt trapped by loyalty. And there's research in the Harvard Business Review that shows that overly loyal people are more likely to participate in unethical acts, to keep the jobs and are also more likely to be exploited by the employers. And I've read that I've seen you do. I hope that's not me. And you could be being asked to work longer than is reasonable on projects. That are way outside your role. Even perhaps more insidious is keeping something under wraps, because it's in everyone's eye. The family's best interest, you know, don't be the one that lets down the team.

Karen Kirton  06:29

Yeah, absolutely. I've worked for an organization that was similar and yeah, we used to say you don't work for the company, you just leave the company like it just was such a part of your life. You know, everyone you knew what the company love, the camaraderie and the sense of purpose. It had lots of fun. Lots of alcohol involved, which didn't help really great friendships. But on the downside, there was no nine to five work. It really pushed the boundaries of what is your work versus your personal life. And I've since seen this with people that I know that worked for unnamed Tech Times, which I'll call chum harm. If you watch The Good Wife, you'll know what I'm talking about. And you know, you just spend your entire days at work, you sleep there, you eat there, you do everything at work, and you know, they get paid a lot of money, but it's the it's their life. It's their livelihood. Everything is tied to that business. So it does make me wonder, you know, is that a workplace as a family or workplace as a cold? And so I had a look at that article that you just mentioned, and there was another related one and I got me thinking, have you ever read the book that loves about Elizabeth Holmes with Theranos

Lachy Gray  07:49

are hired and put on familiar with the with the

Karen Kirton  07:52

story story? Yeah. And the books really interesting actually. It's written by the journalist that uncovered at all and you know, just the difficulties that he had trying to get people to listen to him as well but you know, that's an example of somebody that just lied to you. They should just say, you can take a pinprick of blood and you can get all these blood tests done, and was just able to hoodwink so many very smart, powerful people. And there weren't many employees willing to talk about it and those that tried were crushed by it. It was talked about this other HBR article, we'll put the links on the website to the podcast, but you know, employees are less likely to report wrongdoing. And they said that 45% of people who witnessed wrongdoing a third of those did nothing about it. And it's just that sense of loyalty. Like when I was reflecting on Theranos I thought, yeah, they created this family atmosphere and we're doing these great things began to change the world. And so even the people that could see the technology and could say that this doesn't work, really, we're conflicted about speaking up and doing anything about it and wanted to trust her. They didn't believe that somebody could lie like that.

Lachy Gray  09:16

Well that's a great example, isn't it? And do wonder about very charismatic leaders as she was, and I guess she was able to get so much support and financial backing from really powerful investors and I think that can bring with it a certain sense of validation. And you think, Well, surely all those people can't have been misled as well. So even if you do have a sense that something's not right, if everyone around you just continues on as normal, then I can kind of see how it happened, even though it's easy from the outside looking in to say, Oh, well, you know, they should have spoken up. So we've got some examples there of perhaps when that family culture is there, some real downsides, but what about some other ways to think about workplace culture? One that I've heard is as a sports team. So I focus on our high performing supportive culture, values, regular feedback, learning and growth and there's that common goal or purpose whether to win a premiership the World Cup, and that can drive a sense of belonging and bring people together. So and that's in opposition, I guess, to being bound due to a sense of loyalty or to the family or because this is the way that we've always done it. And it's in a sports team. You need to have the right people and skills in the right roles. And that's true for everybody, whether you're a player or support staff or a coach. And so the roles and what's expected of people in them clearly defined which gives everybody clarity, so that if a player or coach isn't performing, then you can have a conversation and they're likely to change roles or or leave the team so kind of speaks to the idea that if you're not getting what you need, or the team's not getting what you need. It's okay to seek it out elsewhere. And that's actually for the collective good. And there's a great book about the All Blacks who are the keyway rugby team, one of the most successful sport teams in the world, called legacy. And it talks about how intentional they are with their team culture. And a big part of that is a belief that they're leaving a legacy for future for black players,

Karen Kirton  11:50

is a really good analogy. And I've seen a few like this and yeah, in many ways, I agree. we all aspire to run our businesses like really elite teams, right. And we've spoken before about my love of the NRL. And I think one of the reasons why I really get into it is because I really can see a lot of parallels between the workplace and where I see people missing opportunities to get the best out of their team. Do you see it play out on the field? But I think that it's a little simplistic as well compared to a business because if you're in a sports team, you know that there's one goal everyone's going to that one goal, it's very clear. It's not a business with lots of competing priorities, lots of different perceptions and personalities. In a you could argue that it's quite homogenous in terms of types of people and personalities in a sporting team versus within a business you're looking for a lot more diversity of thinking, but I think it's a great lead into our next episode, on the ways that we describe culture and what most appeals to people.

Lachy Gray  13:04

So do you have any alternatives in ways to describe culture that we we haven't talked about yet?

Karen Kirton  13:11

In terms of the types of culture to aspire to? Yeah, I think I'm gonna leave that for the next episode because I gotta give my own spoilers away. But I think in terms of what we're talking about today, with the with your poll, as well, you know, when I looked at those options, you know, I voted for colleagues and because to me, that doesn't mean that you can't be friends or you can't be interested in somebody is live what you're genuinely concerned with what's going on with them, but you can still have the boundaries in place, which I think for many reasons are important. And, you know, Elaine, who I worked with, and we've worked together for over 10 years, and I, I consider her a friend, but also consider her a colleague, as well, and I think one of the reasons why we get along so well is that we're, you know, over that amount of time obviously too, but we've just learned to kind of just psychically understand and know each other's strengths and weaknesses and you know, can just move on but, but I think, yeah, I don't think I could work with someone for that amount of time that closely and not be friends with them. Yeah,

Lachy Gray  14:31

it's so true, isn't it? And this is something that I've been very challenged by, in the past is it just naturally wanting to be friends with people at work? But then acknowledging that there is that professional boundary? And if the time comes, and you have to have a difficult conversation, like that still needs to happen. And I've certainly changed. I think how I think about it over time, as a result of having a few of those conversations, and finally, and very challenging. So, let's talk about some takeaways from today's episode. I think touching on what we're talking about here is really having clear expectations and boundaries in place and one of the things that you've actually encouraged us to do it Yano Karen, is to put a leadership charter in place, which actually outlines what does a leader look like at Yana and then to do the same for the team have a team charter? Pick those clear roles and responsibilities? is super important for everyone. Also, considering the language you use at your workplace, is it described as a family and if it is, do you think that that serves or is representative of the culture? And then also asking what's the shared purpose of your organization? To give you that, that sensible AMI so these two anything that we've discussed will be over on our websites amplify hr.com the BU and rihanna.com. Today, you just follow the links to the podcast section. If you've received value from this episode, we'd love it if you could leave a rating or review over at Apple podcasts.

Karen Kirton  16:13

Yes, so like we almost got into in the next episode, we're going to discuss types of culture it specifically it kind is a word that you would use to describe your culture and should you use that word.

Lachy Gray  16:31

So that's coming up in two weeks from now. So if you click subscribe, you'll get notified of when that's available. Any final thoughts, Karen?

Karen Kirton  16:39

I think I would really love it. If anyone who's listening does describe their culture as a family and has an alternative viewpoint. I'd love to hear it because I think what we've gone through today is we're more on the side of it's probably not that useful to do it so so be great if anyone has any feedback or instances of where that they've actually think that it's served. Their business. Well.

Lachy Gray  17:06

Absolutely. Tell us where you where you disagree and where we've got it wrong. That'd be fantastic.

Karen Kirton  17:11

It's always fun. Well, thanks so much for joining us and we will see you next time on the Make It Work podcast.