How Can I Deliver Valuable and Effective Feedback?

Transcript

Karen Kirton  00:00

if it did please press record on here okay ready when you

Lachy Gray  00:18

grab a sip of water as well. No worries Alright, three, two. In today's episode we are discussing feedback the feedback is critical for effective communication at work. So we know how we're going and what's expected of us. And it's also critical to help us learn and develop. Yeah, unfortunately, feedback is not always delivered. Well, if it's delivered at all. And Karen, I know you have a definition. So would you like to kick off with your definition of feedback?

Karen Kirton  00:59

I didn't realize that I loved the definition. But I guess I do. Yeah, I think feedback at its core, it's about being understood. And I think that's whether because you're giving or receiving feedback. And I remember a long time ago, I read something about feedback and I'm sorry, I can't remember who wrote it, but they said feedback takes little effort, but lots of practice. And that is something that's always stayed with me because I think it's very true. And I think, you know, really we all understand the idea that feedbacks important but I thought maybe I also love a good stat. I put some statistics into the episode as well. And office five seems to do quite a bit of research in this over the years. So their latest statistics, a few that I pulled out. One was that there's almost 15% lower turnover rates in companies that have regular employee feedback. Four out of 10 workers are actively disengaged when they get little or no feedback. And actively disengaged is generally defined by people that not only don't want to do a great job, but they actually want to undermine their colleagues efforts as well. So that's a lot for Tim. And the one that I loved is 65% of employees said they wanted more feedback. But 58% of managers say that they give enough. So there's clearly a gap there. And I know that you practice giving and receiving feedback at yellow lock is so great for you to tell us a little bit about why and how you've implemented that practice.

Lachy Gray  02:42

Yeah, sure. Those that's a frightening aren't they? I think this I reflect on this a lot, actually. My career and receiving very little feedback, really, and I think growing up at school, playing sport, I received a lot of feedback and regularly and then for some reason going into the workplace with a bunch of adults, and it just drops away at a time when it's it's so important. So I think that experience really informed my desire to create a healthy culture and a high performance team. Then I think feedback is a critical component of both. And when we started out we did some research and we found Apple's feedback framework. It's quite simple. We really liked it, and we still use it today. And essentially, it encourages you to identify the behavior that you want to give feedback on and the impact of that behavior. And that framework can work for both positive feedback with praise and also constructive feedback. We don't call it negative anymore because for us, it's given with positive intent. So it's not negative as such, it's given me the desire to see the other person grow. And we've role played, giving and receiving feedback every month, pretty much since piano started. So we used to do it in person, and we'd grab lunch for everybody. And we would do scenarios and watch each other practice and it was hard you're doing in a public space. And we were all learning and making mistakes. And some people are really good at playing characters. Others like me, not so much. A lot of banter was really fun, and it was I think it's a real bonding experience as well because everyone's kind of putting themselves out there a little bit being vulnerable. And since we've been fully remote for last few years, we do it on Zoom. And that's been interesting. So we use breakout rooms. So we'll come up with a bunch of scenarios. We'll talk through them one by one and identify their behavior. Identify an impact. Talk to questions that we could ask to understand what was going on for that person at that time. And then we break into pairs and go into the breakout rooms and actually have a go practice. So one person gives me feedback that I've received and they swap. Then we come back into the main group and share and yeah, it's it's still good fun, and I'm still learning so much. I think to your point before. For me, it's something that has to be practiced all the time. Because I think without practice, it becomes difficult, and we kind of hold back and then feedback just doesn't happen.

Karen Kirton  06:16

How long do these sessions take?

Lachy Gray  06:20

About an hour, okay. So we come up with four scenarios. But usually we only get through about two. Yeah, and it's really good because we when we so we go through as a group. So for example, the scenario could be hairy is consistently run late to the past few meetings. And we try to ensure that the scenarios don't reflect things that have actually happened. At ya know, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You could, you could probably tell me all that, that that's a bad idea. And then we start throwing, okay, what's the behavior that's been observed? And so in that case, it's that Harry was running late, but it's quite interesting. Because it's really easy to add judgmental. Harry's runny light because he's lazy, or he managed his time poorly. And it's really good to catch that for each other. Because we do it without thinking. And I just benefit even from seeing that. Oh, it's so easy to do. Yeah. Just to to start to let a narrative run away from us. So I'm interested, I'm sure you've seen and experienced some unhelpful feedback or unskillful feedback during your career. You want to share some examples with us?

Karen Kirton  07:51

Yeah, I think we can all give examples of this. And when I go back to it, I talk a lot about how we have a negative bias as humans, it's just an evolutionary thing. You know, it's our way of bigger way aware of danger. So we always look for things that are wrong. And this translates into the workplace. And it's one of the reasons why we're much more likely to give people negative feedback or to think about them negatively than we are to actually notice when they're doing really good things. So I've seen some pretty brutal attempts at feedback. I think probably the worst of the ones that are via email, which is unfortunately what many people do go to. And as I was thinking about this, and you know, I was remembering one email from years ago, where a manager was berating people in his team for not doing something but within the email basically said, you know, I know it's not everyone that's doing this so those are you know who you are. So it was just like, it's email isn't aimed at all of you. But I'm just sending it to all of you and it was just it was was so uncomfortable to read. It was just so parent child. And, you know, perhaps not as bad but Sorry, I just had to pull so I could go off. Here we go. Is the old sandwich feedback technique, which is still used by many people who learned it as I did back in the 80s or 90s, which is that you start with something good. And then you put the bid in that they need to improve and then you end with something good. And I was talking to someone yesterday, funnily enough about these because he said to me, isn't that the way that you give feedback? And so I said to him, Okay, let me give you an example. If I say, Hey, Lachy, you know, so good to see you today. Look, thanks for that report. I really appreciate you doing it. But you know, I think that where you did that graphing there was just the wrong colors. But you know, you did such a good job on that report. And I loved it. And you know, it was really awesome. Yeah, what do you get out of that? Yeah. You did a good report, right?

Lachy Gray  10:08

Yeah. I was thinking about the negative bit in the middle.

Karen Kirton  10:15

So you know, people just it's not a clear message. And and yeah, and some people go straight to the bid in the middle and then they think everything else that you've just said there's an old saying everything before but is BS so they hear everything. else that you've just said is not true. And other people who have really healthy sense of self only hear the good bits. And and I've definitely heard, you know, even people that are close to me and my family, I've heard them on the phone, doing things like that and they get off the phone. They're like, Oh, I told that person X, Y and Zed and I'm like, No, you didn't. I heard your conversation. I did not hear those things. So I think it's really important that we're really clear with our feedback and there's tons of research into this area, and we'll put some articles with his podcasts. But a couple of things that stood out to me in the research is firstly, feedback has to be from someone that you trust. And I think the way that you are practicing that giving and receiving feedback, and part of the benefit of that is that you're building that trust with each other, aren't you? So you know that when someone's giving you the feedback, they're not doing it for any other reason, then they actually want to help you. You know, another piece of the research is that struggling employees usually already know that there's a problem. So, you know, when you say, Hey, Lachy, you're not doing great job at this. Well, you kind of already know that. And what you're looking for is actually well, how can you help me with my problem? The more you listen, the more employees think that you're better at giving feedback, which I think it's amazing. So it's actually not even about the communication. It's actually just listening to people and understanding where they're coming from. And, you know, I don't know if you agree with this. Most employees prefer corrective feedback rather than praise. What are your thoughts on that one?

Lachy Gray  12:18

Hmm, that's an interesting one. Perhaps in hindsight, I mean, I think I think feedback lets you know how you're going. So I think both are important are both praise and corrective feedback. Because they're both with a view to improving performance, ultimately, I think. So if you only get corrective feedback, then you wonder, Am I doing anything right? And I think it can be quite demotivating but conversely, if you only receive praise, you do kind of start to wonder I mean, I can't be doing everything right all the time. Yeah. So is my manager. Just not going to tell me if there's somebody that doesn't it? Yeah, yeah. And that kind of that that impacts trust negatively? as well? I think so. It really is a balance. And we actually talked to I got to start from I think it was relationship Council and I heard on a on a podcast, they talked about the ratio of sort of positive to negative communication in a relationship. And just talking about it in a ratio of, I think five to one or similar. So five positive pieces of communication to one negative. Because if you're always doing the negative or the corrective. Yeah, you just think we're all wrong. But you really do you really have my best interests at heart. Are you just trying to make yourself feel better? Yeah, and

Karen Kirton  13:53

I wonder with the one of the reasons for the research showing that is that people seem to prefer corrective feedback rather than praise because they're not getting corrective feedback often enough. So maybe that's why, you know, the research is showing that you know, and the last bit that I'll talk about, and that research was that most people love receiving feedback, but hate giving it Yep. I agree with that. Yeah, it's I think we can all probably resonate with that one.

Lachy Gray  14:22

Yeah, and I think that's the shame, isn't it? It's that it's so unfortunate. Because I, when we introduced the feedback framework that we use, I realized that I'd never been taught how to give feedback or receive it. And then I thought about, I thought, that's a massive hole, right? That's a file. I mean, really, this is, should be something we learned at school, because we're giving and receiving feedback all the time. That's part of being a human, not just at work more probably more importantly, in our personal relationships with friends and family. Where Yeah, we can't leave. We have to have or try to have a harmonious relationship with them. And feedback is a really important part of that. But if you don't know how to deliver it skillfully, then my guess is easier to avoid the conversation entirely. Yeah, which is the real stone. I think that first point that you made about feedback must be from someone that you trust I genuinely agree. But I also want to add another perspective, which is I heard Mellody Hobson on a podcast episode who's the Chair of Starbucks in the US and she was talking about feedback. And she said some of the most beneficial feedback she's received is from people that she doesn't like. And, oh, that was so interesting, but that's that's true. But I think her point is to try to separate the message from the messenger. Yeah. And it sounds fine in theory in practice, for me super hard to do. Because if if I don't trust somebody, really probably listening to them when they if they give me feedback, but and this is what the the stoics you know, recommended. Ask yourself, is, is this helpful? Is that comment or feedback helpful? If it is great, thanks. Doesn't matter who it comes from. If it's not, no worries, move on. And I like that as a really simple framework, because I think feedback can come from anyone at any time. And I'm more careful now not to throw the baby out with the bathwater and think, Well, I don't trust a lot that person so therefore, I'm not going to listen to what they say. Yeah. What do you think?

Karen Kirton  17:07

Yeah, I agree. I think it's easier said than done, though. I think it's, it's natural for us to start to demonize the person and come up with reasons as to why they're providing that feedback rather than taking it on board. You know, and I know recently, I had a situation where someone gave me some feedback, and I really had to sit with it for a few days actually. Because, yeah, with the situation there was a lot going on. And I just thought, what are their motivations? And then I had to stop and kind of think well, actually, I need to forget and not be concerned about their motivations and actually sit back and say, Is there something I can actually learn from this? And I actually shared it with my team members as well and said, Yeah, I really like your inputs. And, you know, let's all try and like put all of our personal feelings to the side. And yeah, what can we actually take out of it and it's a very difficult thing to do. Yeah. And so I do like that. You know, she said that she likes any feedback from people she doesn't like and I understand why because even when we do 360s with clients, and we'll say to people, you know, you need to, to pick people. Not that because you like them or because they're people that you will believe in their responses. Because if you do a 360 with people, and you're just picking someone in another team, but you actually you're not really going to take a lot of value in what they're giving you then there's no point you're not going to get much out of doing it. And that's a you know, it's a fine line to balance because here you don't want people that are just going to tell you all the nice things, but you also need people that you think yes, they know enough about me or the situation that they can give me that information.

Lachy Gray  19:09

Yeah, it's a good point. I do think that the healthy culture and team environment is super important. And I think it's rare that I've had feedback from someone that I don't trust and typically outside of out of the team. That but I do think it's good just to be aware of it because it's very difficult as you say in the moment, because my my instinctive reaction might be to get defensive. And think of all the reasons why I did it. That way. And I think to your point, I think it's a good idea. And it's okay, not to feel like you have to respond, to listen and digest and then say something like, Hey, thanks for the feedback. I'd like some time to think this over. Can we pick this up? Again, in a couple of days? Because when you hit it, once you've had a chance to sleep on it, and that initial emotional response is gone. You look at it more objectively and yeah, actually say Well, is there value here and I think there's a great book on feedback called Radical candor, by Kim Scott in the US, and we've just finished reading it as a leadership team. And she says that giving feedback helps build trusting relationships, because for two reasons one, it shows you care enough to point out both things that aren't going well and those that are, but secondly, that you're willing to admit when you're wrong. You're committed to fixing mistakes that you or others have made. And I really like that when you're sending a signal that you care enough to actually speak up because it's easier not to, especially when you're remote. Because it's a little bit more formal and structured. You have to really make an effort you got to call them or schedule a zoom or a team's chat. But the the second one to you willing to admit that you're wrong, that you can take criticism, and I think that's so important. If you want people to actually give you honest feedback, it's a risk, especially if you're a leader. How do they know how you're going to respond? I could end badly for them. So she, she really recommends starting by criticizing yourself and showing that you can take it or hey, this is what I'm working on right now. And then giving feedback for others. So we've talked about examples of unskillful feedback. What are some examples of skillful feedback that you've seen?

Karen Kirton  22:06

Yeah, that's an interesting one, because I think there are certain people I can kind of think about in my mind, I'm like, yep, they actually really good at it. I think the reason they're really good at it is because they've practiced at it and they're coming from a space of positive intent. So I think a few things is that it needs to be something that you do frequently. So if you're only giving feedback. Yeah, the traditional performance review, let's say, you know, once a year, that's just not going to be helpful for anybody. It's really effective. So I think it needs to be a frequent thing that you're giving positive, constructive feedback to people. I think it needs to be really personal, so not just, hey, look, you're doing a great job. You know, instead of Hey, Lachy, I really liked the way that you did XYZ because of ABC. Because that really gives people a lift because it's like, okay, you really understand what I'm doing. And now I'm motivated to do that again. I think goes back to have to be really clear and not use the sandwich. And it's got to be timely. There's no point in telling somebody about something that they did a month ago or even a week ago to be honest because we just forget, and then we don't know what's happening. So I think if we're doing all of those things, and we're really taking those opportunities to give and receive feedback and ask for feedback as well. I think that's where we can get the most skillful and helpful.

Lachy Gray  23:45

Guide points. Yeah, I think, especially being timely, and that's one thing we we continue to work on, especially for constructive or critical feedback, and feel like you almost need to build a case to be ready and you've got to get in the right headspace and find a good time and time gets away from you. And we've I've seen this where critical feedback is given a month or two after the situation. And it's really bad for the receiver comes out of nowhere. Yeah, they get blindsided and then they think, Well, if you've held on to this, what else haven't you told me? In the last couple of months? Very challenging situation. To be in. So we, we talk about this a lot, give feedback early and often. And it actually takes away some of the gravitas of it. You know, it doesn't become this big thing. It's just something that we all do for each other. Perhaps after a meeting, Hey, can I give you some feedback is now a good time. And then off we go. And it's done. Yeah. And I think it means that the person is more able to tie that feedback back to the behavior. Yep. Cool. I'm going to try this now.

Karen Kirton  25:08

Yeah, absolutely. And it doesn't become a big thing for both of you and you know, you just reminded me a situation that I had last year where a manager and a client gave me some feedback six months after I had said something to her. And when she gave me that feedback, I just felt so sad. Because I said to her, like I just firstly, I don't remember saying whatever I said and so at that point, it's like all I had to do was try and think about why would I have said that? Well, like it wasn't a horrible thing. I remember the words actually now but, but it was like I was trying to think of like, what would the situation have been? And, you know, I try and use humor a lot. And so I just said to her look, potentially it was just an issue where I was trying to lighten it through humor, and it just was very badly done. It was really the only reason I could give I couldn't respond. To her because I actually didn't remember the situation at all. But I just felt really sad for her because I was like, have you really been sitting on this for six months? You know, and what does that mean for us in the future? And anyway, that was, I think, about 18 months ago now. We're still friends. She doesn't work for the client anymore, but we catch up for coffee and stuff. So we we got through it, but I was just really like you said I was really blindsided by it. And I was just, I was so sad for her that I just thought well, like I just I feel so bad. That you've been thinking about this for that long. Yeah.

Lachy Gray  26:46

Yeah, it's so challenging. So we've, we've made a case for why feedback is important. Why do you think it's not given as often as it could be?

Karen Kirton  27:01

Yeah, I think we don't like to do it. There is a research study by someone called kala Jeffries. And you know, she said the reason why we withhold feedback isn't actually protect the recipient, it's to protect ourselves. And I feel there's a lot of truth in that. I think that giving feedback makes us feel really uncomfortable. I think, you know, we're not skilled in it. Like you said, it's not something that we're taught to do. We become really concerned about how the other person will view us or how they going to react. You know, you can just go into the too hard basket, it's easier just to move on and not worry about it. And then you know, we realized three months down the track, actually, this is still bothering me. You know, we just want to forget about it. Sometimes when it's positive feedback I think we just take the person for granted. And just forget to give that positive feedback. What are your thoughts?

Lachy Gray  28:02

Yeah, yeah, I would agree. I think it's it's easy to miss predict how someone will react. And I think it's there, we can jump to the negative and the catastrophic that there are a bunch of potential outcomes, I guess, or reactions from the feedback and I think it's helpful to think through them but also to remind ourselves like why are we giving the feedback? And if we are assuming positive intent, that we're really trying to help the person grow or if it is an unacceptable behavior that they need to know about. Well, it's really our duty to tell them and I've I've withheld feedback before for some of those reasons that you mentioned, and it was often for little things. And I thought, well, that that will get better over time. Yeah, well they'll work out or someone else will tell them. And I've reflected that I'm actually doing a disservice to them by doing that, because when they don't know, I'm assuming they're going to find out somehow I don't know how. But secondly, then they don't know that I've picked those things are. So I'm not, I'm not actively trying to help them. I'm just kind of sitting back and watching. And that's a I think, a really poor way to lead. And I'm not helping to build trust in that. relationship. Because I think if you receive critical feedback that's delivered in a skillful way. It builds trust, you know that that person is going to be straight with you. You know, where you stand. And I think that's really important in the workplace. Especially if the culture isn't as healthy or as safe as we would like it to be. You kind of need to know who's got your back who's a straight shooter. You don't have to be best buddies. But you know that if you ask for their opinion on something they'll give it and if they see something that you could be doing better, they'll tell you. That's really important. So, couple things that I've learned about feedback. I think you mentioned before we are being specific. I think that's really important. I've received a lot of general positive feedback, I would say, like, Great job. Good asset. Great report. So it's really unhelpful because if you think about what should I repeat in the future, I have no idea because there are so many elements to putting those things together. So when we practice, we practice being specific. So for example, I might say I'm working on my presenting skills at the moment. I'm trying to speak slower and more clearly. What's one thing I could do to improve it lets the person know like, Hey, this is what I'm working on. Here's something I want to do better. And I like the one thing because I can be really broad otherwise and you're on the spot the thing. I really want to give some feedback but I really don't know. I think using a framework and practicing it to help deliver in a helpful and meaningful ways. Great. So yeah, the one we use is situation behavior impact. If you Google that, it'll come up. It's very common, and it's it's pretty straightforward as well like about it. And I think seek seek feedback from colleagues and mentors and coaches and customers and, and everybody because everyone's got a different perspective. And I think the more often we ask for feedback, it's a really strong signal that we're trying to improve that we're open to feedback and I think you're more likely to get it and it might be something small that you have no idea what you're doing. You can change really easily. That's going to make your interactions better anything far. Out. No one's ever told me that before. And I think related, if you're a leader, criticize yourself first, to show you can take it. This is something that I'm working on. It doesn't come naturally to me especially to do it in public. And this is what Kim Scott, the author of radical candor recommends, like bleeders criticize yourselves in public. To build that trust, show your team that it's okay. So when they give you critical feedback, they know that you're going to listen to it you're going to be open to it. There's not a risk for them.

Karen Kirton  33:03

Yeah, that's a very interesting balance in line there though, because I've also come across leaders that criticize themselves all the time and it actually becomes really irritating for the employees because they want someone that's you know, they feel it's got the reins of the business as well. So, yes, sorry, criticize yourself too much Lachy. You're a good person.

Lachy Gray  33:29

Yeah,

Karen Kirton  33:30

yeah, no, I think that, you know, they're all really great things and I think in terms of what I've got out today is, as I was listening to your talk, I thought Jamie, were talking a lot about negative feedback as well. But I think we can't forget that positive feedback actually makes us feel good. Like it makes the person giving it feel good. And it makes the person receiving it feel good. Yeah, which is easy to forget.

Lachy Gray  33:54

Yeah, that's a really good point. And I think it's also you mentioned before taking people for granted. You think, oh, well, that person knows that. They're a star performer. Yeah. I know. They do a really good job, so I don't need to tell them Yeah. I mean, praise feels good, especially when it's sincere. And it's specific. And we, we have a shout out channel, or thanks, channel in Slack. And we would give each other praise in there. And we also start our weekly team. With with a shout out section where we give praise as well, because it feels good. You know, what's really interesting is that when we practice when we roleplay, giving positive feedback, it feels good for everybody. Whether you're in the scenario or not, even though it's a roleplay.

Karen Kirton  34:51

Yeah. It says wonderful endorphins.

Lachy Gray  34:56

Yeah, yeah. It's like your brain doesn't know doesn't know the difference doesn't care. It's like, well, this is what feels good. And you're more likely then to want to give positive feedback to somebody else, because you want that good feeling to continue. Absolutely. That's all so a few takeaways. For me today. I think, like feedback is so important. So if it's not something that is done well in your organization, what can you do to get it started? There are a bunch of resources on his books like for radical candor that really lay it out in detail. That situation behavior impact model is a good one. I think it should be delivered in a timely manner. And often, and practice really helps. Just adding the conversation about feedback. How are we going to do it? Why should why should we do it? And doing it as a team, like it's a really good team exercise. would you add anything? Any takeaways from today, Karen?

Karen Kirton  36:01

Yeah, I think as I've been reflecting, I think sometimes particularly comes with positive feedback and you're taking people for granted and we do forget to give it and I go on holidays soon. And I had one of my clients asked me, Well, can you tell me about a light because I said, Well, I'm on leave, you need to speak with Elaine. And I said, Oh, you know, I've worked with her since 2009. I think she's fantastic for these reasons. I said and so one of the reasons we work so well together is because my brain will go directly to you know how we put a process in place. How do we fix this thing? Let's just get it sorted. And then I start thinking about the impacts to people where she's the opposite way she thinks about impacts to people and then she goes into the process I said, that's probably works so well together. And and she said to me, Oh, that's so beautiful. You should tell her that and I was like, Oh, you're so right. So I think you know, baby, that's a tip for people like if you're thinking about you know, I don't know that I often give positive feedback. Have someone asked, you know, what do you like about Lachy what does he give his value to your business? And you know, if you're talking about things just off the top of your head, you might find something that you can then share with the person.

Lachy Gray  37:13

I love that. I find myself doing that as well. Yeah. Isn't that funny? Isn't it such a human thing?

Karen Kirton  37:19

Yeah, absolutely. And we just because we know it and we just forget to tell people.

Lachy Gray  37:26

Yep. And it's the people that we spend the most time with. You probably hear the feedback the least. So true. All right. Well, links to articles anything else we've discussed will be over on our websites yano.com Today you and amplify hr.com Today you just follow the links to the podcast sections. If you've received value from this episode, we would love it if you could leave a rating or review over at Apple podcasts.

Karen Kirton  37:58

Coming up in the next episode is all about hiring in a difficult market and when and how do you turn to professional recruiters?

Lachy Gray  38:06

Well, certainly a difficult market right now. So I look forward to that one. That episodes coming up in two weeks from now. So if you click the subscribe button, you will be notified of when it's available. Any final thoughts, Karen?

Karen Kirton  38:21

I just wanted to say that I hope that people get some good tips out of this episode and can do some Googling of some different feedback structures because they're really easy to find and start to implement in your business. And thank you for joining us and we'll see you next time on the Make It Work podcast.

Lachy Gray  38:43

We go very good. That was a good I feel good that one.

Karen Kirton  38:48

Yeah, cuz we're talking Well, we did talk about negative things, but we talk about a lot of positive things too. So it makes us feel good.

Lachy Gray  38:55

I think it was a bit more. Be more conversational. Yeah. I think sometimes I feel like yeah, that the script is good, but it's it helps me sometimes it feels like it constrains me a bit but I think this one was really good and that we could just jump in and out. That felt good. It felt like a really good conversational flow.

Karen Kirton  39:17

Yeah, I think also, I don't know, maybe it's a topic that we both just have more like personal examples around as well. So yeah, and then I started thinking about oh, yeah, all this negative feedback I've had in the last couple of years. And it all comes back to an example.

Lachy Gray  39:39

That's a quote that I I mentioned in the, in the onboarding when I take new startups through the feedback framework.