If it’s Not Money, then What Motivates Us at Work?

Transcript

Lachy Gray  01:32

In today's episode, we're revisiting the topic of motivation at work. In episode nine we spoke about financial rewards as a form of motivation. It research suggests that even if we all got to choose how much we paid, it probably wouldn't increase our job satisfaction. So this raises the question, Well, if there's not extra cash, what does motivate us at work? So Karen, what comes to mind for you when you think of motivation at work?

Karen Kirton  02:06

Yeah, it's an interesting one. And you know, we talked about intrinsic versus extrinsic rewards in episode nine. So we're, something's intrinsic, you know, we're internally motivated, if you like, and I think if you talk to people on the surface, they will usually say, you know, yes, it's money. But as you say, the research suggests that's not actually the case. And we can all earn more money somewhere else. There's always another job with another company that pays more. But the reason we don't move is because also that to consider what are we losing by getting that money and sometimes it's the workplace culture, could be our leisure time, there could be a lot of travel or commuting to that other company. In some jobs, you've got to compete in international timezone. So you're up at three o'clock in the morning on webinars. You know, there's physical locations, the type of work, and then there's just things like, you know, the ability to develop and learn. And I don't know that there's one specific motivator for people but perhaps it's a combination of all of those things in terms of what's going on in our personal life that we need to make sure that work can fit alongside with and then what do we actually personally want to get in terms of challenge and development and growth from work as well? On about you Lachy.

Lachy Gray  03:32

Yeah, I think that's a good point. I think there are so many elements to motivation, and it can be difficult to actually put our finger on what does motivate us. And perhaps there's also a distinction between short term motivators and a longer term. So yeah, I guess a raise for example, is a short term motivator. Where after a while, you know, a couple of months say, we adapt to it. We've, we've spent our increase our expenses have increased

Karen Kirton  04:04

according to means.

Lachy Gray  04:07

And then we look for the next rise. So yeah, I think it can be challenging to actually step out of out of that mindset and think about what's actually important to us. I mean, thing for me, if I'm motivated to do something, it's usually because I enjoy it. There's a there's a sense of purpose behind it. And also a sense of progress. Think about, say exercise that fits the bill for me, since I moved to Newcastle. I've swam at the ocean bars here all year round. largest ocean bars in the southern hemisphere by the way.

Karen Kirton  04:45

Love your advertising for Newcastle

Lachy Gray  04:48

guys that ever comes up compensated. And yeah, I'm, I'm not. No, I'm not a big swimmer. I've never really entertained the thought before but now I swim in winter and cold water by choice every week in the same why it's actually really mentally refreshing. And it's a hard thing that I have to push myself to do. But when I do it, I feel fantastic. And I think at work, you know, I'm motivated when I get to collaborate on a new strategy with the team and research it test it, put it into play seeing the impact. Again, I think there's a challenging aspect to it. Then I'm also supported by the team. And there's a sense that we're all in it together. So we're working towards a common goal to deliver better learning to our customers and learners. What motivates you can

Karen Kirton  05:46

I think, you know, like I say, everyone's motivators are different, but I think also our motivations change over time. So, if I think about right now, I think for me it's about actually being mentally challenged every day. I believe in continual learning. And it's also important to me to feel that I'm contributing to a greater good. When I was an employee, I would say it was also about the people that I was working with and the people that I was leading because my last corporate job was quite a big team. And I found that quite energizing and motivating. And I had a look at some recent stats around non monetary incentives and there was there's a lot of research and the latest one I saw was from Randstad. And they said that salary and benefits is still the most important factor for employees 62% That said that that was their most important factor, which I think has really just started over the last year or so as we've been coming out of COVID, so to speak. And, you know, we've had some real economic challenges and still do some money's, you know, become a higher on the list for people what they're looking for. But then the other motivators were much more related to personal wellbeing, and happiness. So, you know, whereas salary and benefits was 62% work life balance was 58%. So it's not that far behind, you know, work life balance or flexibility traditionally has been, you know, always in that top three, you know, job security at 56%. So, that's interesting, that still quite high, a pleasant work atmosphere, which I would call culture 55% And then career progression at 49%. So, if we consider that money has for a long time been considered a hygiene factor in that it doesn't motivate, but it does does satisfy that it suggests that as long as we're paying people the right amount, and then we're understanding what their personal motivators are, then that's really the key to employee engagement and retention.

Lachy Gray  08:05

Yeah, I wonder which I was wondering with, you know, salary, especially being the most important factor, which, you know, of course, it is very important, but do you think it is to, to feel that it's fair as opposed to a specific number, say because I always think it's an of course there are various elements to it. I guess one is being relative to how your colleagues are being paid, is massive. Even your peer group, you know, that's why we were comparing. That's what we're comparing with So, yeah, that sort of sense of being a fair salary is really important, rather than necessarily the salary itself. But you don't always get that. I guess. It's context in a in a survey there.

Karen Kirton  08:56

No, well, that's right. And I think that it's kind of like as a consumer buying a product, you know, you can buy a book for $10 and you can buy a book with a special cover for $100 let's say. And, you know, sometimes you might think Well geez, that $100 is really expensive. It must be amazing or you might think that $100 is really expensive. What on earth are they thinking? And it's the same with job offers, you know, if you're on $50,000, and someone offers you 100,000, you might go, that's amazing, but you might also say, Well, what are they thinking? What kind of company is this? Why are they offering me that money? You know, what does that mean? I'm going to have to give in return. So I don't know that it is. Yeah, I'm looking for, you know, double or triple my salary. But yeah, it needs to be attractive. So it needs to be what I feel that I'm worth probably plus a little bit so you know, apart from from money let's say that you're being paid exactly where you want to be Lachy you can pay for all your bills and mortgage free having a great life swimming in your Newcastle bars. What would be your top three motivators when it comes to work?

Lachy Gray  10:14

So that's a great, that's a great question. I think, definitely, like collaborating on collaborating on hard things. So we were really pushing ourselves and that's a real sense of having to work together and, and rely on each other's skills. It's too much for one person. I think doing good work, seeing some sort of impact. To get that feedback, loop going and sense of progress like that what I'm doing is, yeah, making a difference somewhere. Whether that's within the organization, whether it's with the people I work with, whether it's external in the community, could be a lot of areas actually, but again, at some sense of feedback coming through that, like what I'm putting all this effort into is actually doing something. And I think the research suggests people who are happy in their jobs have common attributes and they are autonomy, competency and a clear mission. purpose and the purpose when it comes up often. And a study of over 20,000 workers around the world was 50 companies found that why we work determines how well we work, which is interesting. So why we work determines how well we work. I had to read it a couple times. Think about it. And we ran an exercise recently with the whole Yano team to better understand what drives Jana was. And this was off the back of reading the book radical candor which I think we've spoken about before. And the exercise was called Career conversations and their three roughly 45 minute conversations. The first is understanding their past. So why they started a job, how they found it, why they changed jobs, and you really have to try to understand, like, look for themes through their career history. And the second is about dreams for the future. What would you be doing at the pinnacle of your career? What would the role look like? What would the organization look like? Who would you be working with and then the third is looking at the gap between the present and the future, and use that to inform you know what to focus on. But what's interesting, especially with that first conversation, where we're talking about the past, is you hear people's motivations for applying for a job, and then also for leaving, what they thought they were getting into what actually happened, and then how they use that to look for the next role. And sometimes it was about money, but more often it was to gain more or a different experience because they stopped learning and they couldn't grow any more. They wanted to escape an unhealthy culture or they wanted a better values fit and it coming back to purpose that that values fit and a sense of purpose actually came up quite often. And I've been thinking about it, you know, I'm not sure if that's a generational thing that that's more important now or not, but, but it really resonated with me.

Karen Kirton  13:42

Yeah, I think the research that I've seen suggests that if I may call them the younger generations to find it like us, do you find you know, values and purpose is a key driver and the reasons why they take on a new role but also since the pandemic it's actually become much more important to everybody.

Lachy Gray  14:13

Interesting, is it like a re like a clarifying of what's important and what people want from their workplace?

Karen Kirton  14:23

Yeah, I think it was this huge global experiment in what happens if we just stop and when would you ever get that opportunity otherwise so? I know for me, you know that very first lockdown. That was really shocking wasn't there was never any time that you would ever imagine everybody just being at home. And so it enabled everyone I think to take stock and say, Well, how many times a week Am I running the kids to soccer practice and how many times are they going to you know, scouts or swimming or whatever it might be and you know, what am I doing for myself? And how do we manage this ongoing? So I think for a lot of people, and they talked about this with the great resignation as well. They actually then made permanent decisions to say, Well, I'm not going to have that life anymore, and I'm stepping out of the traditional workforce. So I think part of that is looking at, you know, those deeper values and beliefs inside of ourselves and say, Well, what do I want to get out of life over the next 1020 years? So I'm certainly seeing a lot more businesses starting to advertise their values and their purpose in their normal consumer advertising as well as you know, LinkedIn posts and, you know, looking for, for people to work for them, etc. It's which I think is great. By the way, I think that's really important. Perhaps that goes to my motivators.

Lachy Gray  15:53

Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it, that that sort of forced period of introspection and reflection? Yeah, and I do hope that those positive kind of outcomes actually persist and flash in the pan but I think we are seeing that as we've spoken about in previous episodes, you know, with candidates looking for new roles, they are asking for what they want. Flexibility in the role. Yeah, they want to work for a company that is trying to do some good. That has become important. Now. And that's driving more transparency and better communication out to stakeholders from organizations. I think that's fantastic. Yeah, so So what kills motivation at work? There are a lot of things but what are some of the top offenders that you've seen?

Karen Kirton  16:52

Well, I think we have to start with leadership, don't me and two quotes come to mind. The first is the fish rots from the head which is always a delightful visual. You know, the other we've heard a lot you know, employees don't leave jobs, they leave their managers. And, you know, I think that your leader makes such an impact on your motivation at work because it goes directly to the type of work that you're doing. The environment that you're in, your accessibility to recognition, rewards, benefits, you know, if you look at everything we've spoken about in terms of non monetary motivators that essentially all controlled from that later. So I think if that's not right, then that's where people become really demotivated and there is a threshold there of no return. And you know, and I've seen this in many, many people, and I've experienced it myself, where you just kind of put up with things but then you get to a level where there's no going back. And you know, you've mentally checked out, resigned and you move on and it doesn't matter at that point what the company offers you. You're gone. You know, I think another thing I was reflecting on was when I was doing my psychology degree, and I remember reading about, you know, these years of different research studies and they said that when people start getting paid for a task they already enjoy, they can lose interest in it. Which is interesting. And back in the day, when the internet was brand new and shiny, I did website development, and I really enjoyed it as a hobby. But as soon as I studied it, and had to look at doing it as a job I didn't enjoy it anymore. So So I understood that part of it. And you know, I guess it's a paradoxical finding, but it is that rewards can reduce intrinsic motivation. And the key with the studies is that we shouldn't feel bribed or controlled for doing something to receive the rewards. So the role reward should actually give us positive feedback about our performance rather than be seen to be well, if you do this, you get paid that so I think they're interesting things to think about when it comes to Yep, how do we demotivate people. But coming back to you know, what are other ways that we can motivate people? What are your thoughts on that?

Lachy Gray  19:39

Yeah, I think I think we said a similar thing in episode nine when he talked about financial rewards, and that's so powerful. So I think we do need to go into with that mindset, and I think to help, we need to discover what people's motivations at work actually are. Why did they take on the role? what energizes them day to day? What drains them? And what's important to them? So, and as I've just learned recently, going through that career conversation, process it ya know, it's very different. And it can assume what you think it is for someone and it can be totally different. So it might be feeling recognized, feeling supported, being challenged regularly, having flexibility and autonomy. Doing hard things. And I think to that, acknowledging that we all have lives and responsibilities outside of work, and how do they impact on how we show up and our motivation to do our best work at work. To sharing context. So giving your team the full picture, they understand that their work matters, explain why they're doing it. What are we all working towards here? Who benefits and share files and losses and challenges as well? And really bring the human side to it. Recognizing contributions, showing appreciation, calling out great effort and great work to help people feel appreciated and valued. And that's part of the culture I think, and one way to do that is to practice giving and receiving feedback. So it's fun of mine. It becomes a habit. It's something that we all do for each other. It becomes part of the culture, and it feels good. It really does. I think it's a powerful motivator. And then also checking our own motivation. If we're a leader, if we're not feeling motivated, if we're feeling a bit flat or stressed out, bit over it, it's going to be difficult to inspire our team and expect them to be super motivated. So taking a step back and asking Yeah, what what drives us like what, what energizes us what drains us? And ideally, it's something greater than a job title or a salary but if it is those things, asking Do they really make me happy? And am I in the right job? What would you add to that list? Karen?

Karen Kirton  22:38

Yeah, no, I think your list is really, really good. And there's not much I can add into it. I think there's I was thinking about the appreciation at work framework, which was put together by Paul whitening Gary Chapman, and they talk about the five different ways that people like to feel appreciated. And so I think that's something that you know, practically people can can do in the workplace if they're trying to work out you know, how do I work out the motivators of my team members? And you know, you talked about those career conversations, which are great, you know, this is another way to start looking at those things. Because I look at everyone has a way that they like to be appreciated that probably have a secondary preference. And they definitely have a white light don't like it is just as important. And you know, that's within words of affirmation. So standing up and saying thanks to someone, you know, quality time, acts of service, tangible gifts, and physical touch. And physical touch sounds weird in the workplace, but we're really just talking about, you know, people that like to give an actual Pat in the back or they like to shake hands or like to high five, it's more those things, but you know, it's a good framework because you do a little online survey and you can understand, okay, this is, you know, how my team members like to feel appreciated, which could help to go into those motivations. You know, and then probably the easiest thing to do is just to listen to people, you know, ask questions, you know, all those lovely psychological safety tips that we get given, you know, having that safe culture. enabling people to be honest about their motivations, I think is really important because if we can enable people to feel really safe about talking about their wants and their needs and their dreams, then as leaders, we're best able to actually motivate them at work. And sometimes people don't like to be honest about that. Because, you know, their dream may not be to work at IANA or to work at amplify HR for the next 20 years. And that's okay. And I think that's, you know, as lean as what we need to explain to people it's actually all right. It's like we don't expect you to say you want to work with us for the rest of your career. It's not realistic, but you know, while you're here, what can we do to help you?

Lachy Gray  25:04

Yeah, it's a great point. And it's one that we talked about before we started the process because of course, I wouldn't expect many people to say that they will be working with us in 20 years time. Once we actually move past that. It's quite liberating. You actually really get to think, at all for them to explore as an exercise or what does it actually look like? And a lot of people never thought about. I kind of go and I'm the same way from just to the next role to the next. And I think there are some people who do plan it out perhaps. But what I learned is that it's so helpful to have an idea even if you don't know what the role is, or the organization, but what is the day to day look like? Because then you can use that to inform your decision to say, what do I focus my time on? What do I need to learn? Who do I need to get you know, like a mentor coach to work towards that, and it might be 1015 years down the track, but having some understanding of what it looks like, super helpful.

Karen Kirton  26:17

Yeah, and that's a great point. Actually, it often is going outside of yourself and actually finding external people to assist. And I find that some people are very reluctant to do that. But once they do and you find you know, the right coach or the right mentor or just the right networking group, it can just be really open your mind to so many more possibilities.

Lachy Gray  26:40

Yeah, I agree. So, to recap, I think motivation is different for all of us. So there is an opportunity to discover what motivates the people that we work with. The career conversations are one vehicle one on ones might be another. It's quite interesting, I think, to explore. And it might not win. Well, what we find out might not be what we expect and that's okay. We need to be prepared for that. I think it's helpful to ask too what behavior or behaviors are we trying to encourage? And so what are some ways we can do that? So that we try to match the workplace motivators with those behaviors and with some might be financial, some might be non finance or that we're really going into it with that mindset, rather than starting with, well, we need a reward for this. Then let's work backwards from there. And I think to being mindful of unintended consequences, as we've spoken about in this episode, and also in episode nine. We don't always know how people are going to respond. So an annual recognition program for high achievers might increase performance for some yet at the cost of disengagement resentment in the broader organization. So we need to be mindful of this I think and really monitor it once we put something into practice and be prepared to modify it, if we need to. Karen, would you add anything to that?

Karen Kirton  28:22

Yeah. And I think probably my takeaway was something that you say, which is actually we need to understand our own motivations as well and I think sometimes we forget to take that step. So as important as it is to ask other people it's also important to understand our own because we're going to use that as the lens through which we think other people are motivated, which as we know is just not true.

Lachy Gray  28:45

Yeah, for sure. So links to articles and anything else we've discussed today will be over on our website, amplify HR to accommodate you, and jana.com Today, you just follow the links to the podcast section. If you've received value from this episode, we would love it if you could leave a rating or review over at Apple podcasts.

Karen Kirton  29:07

Coming up in the next episode is Compassionate Leadership. And we're discussing this with Jenny Steadman, who is from the potential project around their latest, best selling book called Compassionate Leadership how to do hard things in a human way.

Lachy Gray  29:24

Yeah, that was a fantastic conversation. So look forward to that one. That's coming up in two weeks from now. So click the subscribe button so you'll get notified when it's available. Any final thoughts, Karen?

Karen Kirton  29:36

I think for everyone to look at what's in their organization right now in terms of what you have from a financial and non financial reward system. And then, you know, what can you potentially add into that to make it more personalized? So I love the idea of the career conversations. You know, you could use that appreciation framework or you could just make sure that you're having one on ones and actively listening to your team members as well.

Lachy Gray  30:06

Well, thanks so much for joining us, and we will see you next time. On the Make It Work podcast.