Keeping Connections in Remote and Hybrid Workplaces

Transcript

Lachy Gray  00:23

There's lots been said about working from home and it seems it's here to stay. But less has been said about what we traded to achieve work flexibility, and less in person connection with our colleagues and friends at work. And this can result in loneliness, difficulty building rapport and a feeling of being disconnected from our workmates. The 2022 stated remote work report by buffer found loneliness was the second most common concern with remote work. And so it's certainly an issue. I do think we need to acknowledge that working remotely during COVID is not representative of a true remote work experience. You know, being forced to isolate in your home is different to practically choosing when where you work from as you're starting a job during COVID at a company that's been forced to go remote. So what do you think can the remote and hybrid workplaces make us lonely?

Karen Kirton  01:33

Yeah, and I was thinking about this for this episode, because the word lonely to me just brings up so many negative emotions. So of course, I love a definition. So looked it up and the proper one of the proper definitions of loneliness without companions and solitary. So I thought we'll Well that makes sense then, doesn't it? Because, you know, when I reflect on myself, I wouldn't have described myself as lonely. But, you know, I signed an office space a month ago because I was completely over working from home. And that has just changed my moods so much. You even commented on it. When we had a meeting one day, you know, everyone now calls it my happy place. And I think it's because I just get to I get to see people, and I got to go down to the coffee shop owner and understand what her story was and just connecting with other business owners in the building, as well. And it just it just made a really big difference to me, and it hasn't even been that long since I've been there. And then you know, outside of my experience of one, you know, I was reading about Microsoft recent work trends index, and they found that almost 60% of hybrid workers said they have fewer friends since working remotely and 55% feel lonely as a result. of this. So I found that really fascinating because quite significant statistics. And you know, going back to my psychology, training, you know, social psychologists call it that need for affiliation like as human beings we have a desire to establish social contact with other people, you know, put simply when people like people, so I think loneliness with remote working is a real problem for many people, but not for everybody. And I think that's important to remember as well. So we're saying 59% of hybrid workers well there's still 41% that aren't saying that so, you know, that is where the challenge we lost for the workplace because perhaps is probably on average, about a third of people you know, depending on the research that you look at, that are happy to permanently work from home as you do Lachy. So have you found your mindset or well being has shifted roles since you changed to remote working?

Lachy Gray  03:58

Yeah, I think so. I would, I would self identify as an introvert. In that, yeah, I can be alone and not be lonely. And I need that alone time to recharge my energy. I find a lot of socializing tiring, that I think it's I probably take it to the extreme now. And I would like to probably a day a week, catching up with people in person. So I do acknowledge that. Yeah, I haven't made the connection. And I yeah, it's been amazing seeing you go back into an office space. That first meeting that we had you were like different person. So happy. That's phenomenal. And I do feel that when I catch up with the team, it does feel really good. So I do acknowledge that I'm interested with the with the stat is that fewer friends at work, or

Karen Kirton  05:02

no, it just said fewer friends but I think when we consider that, like that's where most people do gain friendships as adults, right. So it's either through your kids friends or through sport and then works where you send spend a significant amount of time.

Lachy Gray  05:20

Yeah, it's interesting. I I was digging into loneliness as well. And I came across a Gallup article that made a distinction between loneliness and isolation, saying loneliness is emotional isolation and structural. That's interesting. Saying that loneliness is an emotional response. To a lack of connection and you could experience loneliness in the office as well. And also outside, whereas isolation is is a lack of access to information or support or we feel ignored and that that's a technical rather than an emotional issue. So I don't wanna get too bogged down in, in definitions, but I do think it's important to to consider that. And I think, yeah, we are social animals, aren't we? Like we do require connection and I think not having connection can be detrimental to our health. And it reminded me when I was researching this episode, that great program on ABC iView, called Old People's Home for four year olds. Have you watched it?

Karen Kirton  06:35

No, I've seen the ads I think honestly, I'd end up with like a crying mess about

Lachy Gray  06:40

it. Yeah, it's probably wise. It's it's a brings together elderly people that are retirement community with a group of four year olds, in an effort to improve connection and friendship. So interestingly, my kids go to the daycare where this is shot. Oh, wow. And as part of that daycares program, at least once a week, all the kids catch up with their grand friends, they call them and because the daycare is in, it's in a retirement village. It is so special. And these are people who might have no other real contact during the day. And they love hanging out with the kids. The kids have no social etiquette or they don't care how old they are. What they've done doesn't matter if they're in a bad mood, it doesn't matter. And they do activities together and kids love it. And the grand friends love it as well. It just shows to me the importance of connection, especially in an age group that is often pointed to as a real risk of loneliness. So yeah, I think we know that the connection with people is important, but what's less clear for me is that the impact working remotely has on connection and to what extent we can replicate that in person connection online. What do you think?

Karen Kirton  08:05

Yeah, I personally don't think it can be replicated online, like, you know, I think online plays a part but in person, we're much more likely to deviate off topic, because you know, you're sitting in groups and so you can just kind of, you know, talk to the person next to you if you like and and talk about something else. Or if even if it's just one on one, it's much easier because you're seeing that whole person and all of their body language to kind of dive in and say, oh, you know, when you're talking about that, how about this, whereas online, it's very much you know, one person speaking at a time and, and I think that we're taking in so much information, subconsciously, it's also so limited online, because we only see that little window. You know, and if we're in a group, we can't see the dynamics in the room. So, you know, so I personally think that in person events and meetings are probably more critical in terms of creating connections and building relationships. I still think there's a place for both. I don't think every single meeting needs to be in person. But I think that it does make a difference. And he was reading about the metaverse the other day in an HR context, because Gartner released a report the by 2026, which is not even four years away. At least 25% of the world's population will spend an hour a day in the metaverse. And that by 2030. It'll be in the mature phase where most of our physical world will actually be mapped and indexed. And so from an HR standpoint, I was saying, Well, if you have people based in India or Perth or you know, America or wherever, why would you fly them in when you can all meet together in this metaverse? So you don't have to jump on Zoom. You just go into the metaverse and you you know, in inverted commas physically meet up with your team or your clients which is quite fascinating to me and I wonder whether that will help with some of the limitations that we currently have with being online. But yeah, but back to your original question, because you do a lot more remote work than me at the moment. What's your experience with replicating that online?

Lachy Gray  10:28

Well, I can't wait to chat with Zuckerberg. Yeah, might might might be surprising, but I don't think online can replicate in person. One to one especially not at the moment. Yeah, I don't get that same sense of connection through zoom in and I do in person. I think part of that is knowing that I'm staring at a screen there is a barrier between us. Part of it is to not being able to pick up those nonverbal cues as easily and I've realized how important they are to building rapport but also having a conversation that flows. I think we've talked about before, something like 65% of the social meaning of a situation comes from nonverbal cues. And if you have someone's audio gets a bit patchy or videos not on for a portion. It's really challenging. Just breaks the conversation and breaks the flow and I think to depends on how well you know that person. If the person is new, or new, like that's, that's challenging. Because we don't have a history to call on. I don't have rapport built up. And this was something that we talked about at IANA when we went remote two years ago, or two and a half now that some of us we knew each other really well from working in the office. That's different when you go remote to hiring and onboarding people who have never worked together as in the office. And we still get feedback along those lines for our onboarding and it's one reason we make an effort to actually do some little reporting in person. And that's something that I picked up from companies that have been remote for many years. I thought that's so interesting, like they it's not that they don't catch up in person that they're just, it is quite deliberate about it. Yeah. And I've linked to that working remotely. It reduces those chance encounters, and you run into somebody or you overhear a conversation about a kid's birthday or what I got up to on the weekend. And those those sort of encounters can spark collaboration built before and in deep interest, and I think they're pretty difficult to emulate online. Yeah, you can do it on Zoom, but you kind of have to book in zoom, which is heard was formal and structured. And we use a tool called donut and slack that randomly pairs to Jana was for a non word challenge week. So it's an attempt at encouraging non word banter. But it's a planned ad hoc chat rather than a genuine chance encounter.

Karen Kirton  13:28

Yeah, it's It's tough, isn't it? I I did a workshop play about two months ago with a team of around 15 And part of that workshop was talking about, you know, how effective teams work you know, what are the basics that you need to have in place to have high performing teams and after we did that, we then started drafting a team charter, which is basically where the team puts down, you know, behavioral sentences of how they think they should work together. And one of the sentences was non obligatory, non cringe worthy fun. And, yeah, because one of the employees was telling a story of it wasn't at their organization, but one of their friends organizations where they put them all together into a workshop and said, You need to choose a mug which had a conversation starting topic. on it. So then you would all go around with your mom, because then you would have to start the conversation with whatever was on your mind. Which I understand where that would come from. Like it's, yeah, but to this particular team, they were like, Oh, God, you know, that's really forced, you know, you're being made to talk to someone it's really cringe worthy. So, so they were then starting to talk about okay, well, because they do work remotely, although they also have an office space to go to was okay, well, what can we do that's not obligatory, not cringe worthy. So So I thought that was a really important conversation, actually, because a lot of this comes down to the actual individuals within the team. And I know you know, I've also started to attend a lot more in person events. And I have started to wonder, you know, yeah, to practice with meeting new people. Like, I still wonder what's the norm now? Do we shake hands? There was a time there. We were doing the elbow bump, like, is that still the thing? I don't know. And, and then I think, you know, I went to strategy day recently, and there was about 60 people and the room was big enough for 60 people pre COVID. And it's still big enough now but for some people, they felt uncomfortable and would have preferred a room basically double the size which is not always easy to get in the CBD. So then it was, you know, starting me to think well, you know, how, as leaders, how do we facilitate those connections and how do we facilitate these in person things? But we're still balancing health concerns. Your COVID hasn't gone. So I think there is an opportunity to look for more ways that we can have that face to face time and schedule it in but there's still a lot of issues. There are people that are very happy to be at home all the time. Other people that have those health concerns. And then yeah, how do we make it so it's not obligatory and cringe worthy?

Lachy Gray  16:37

Yeah, is that you just pass it over to me have you? Yeah, you can answer that. Yeah, it's it's a talent that I guess it's an opportunity as well, because if, if I reflect on pre COVID times, the default was the office. Yeah. So we were quite a bit away on the other side, which is where you just get an office and you just work from an office and that's the way it's always been done. And that's the way that we do it. Yes. And now we have an opportunity. Well, how do we want to spend time in person? How do I want to spend my time remotely? I think that's awesome. But inherently challenging, because everybody's going to have a different perspective. So yeah, I think, I think asking the question, having the conversation as a team individually, is super important. We are all going to have a different perspective on this and that's okay. One of the that Gallup article I mentioned before, recommend, and I'll share this in the show notes, recommended some very direct questions, to ask to help managers shape solutions. So such as, how are you getting along is it too quiet at home? Do you miss having people around? Do you feel left out? Very specific to that person that might be in a one on one. And then I guess there's an opportunity for pulse surveys or similar to try and get a temperature pulse abroad are one because the organization and and I think to like free us individually. asking ourselves, Am I getting enough social connection do I have a balance between in person and virtual, what does my ideal look like and our preset the ideal? Often isn't possible. But if we're talking about trying to design a solution that's going to work for most people. I think it's really exciting to have the opportunity to provide input to that. Because the I don't think there is a one way forward now. Every business can do it in a way that suits them best and yeah, that's scary for leadership because you think well far out how do I keep everybody happy? It's only gonna get harder than it ever has short. But there's also a lot of opportunity, because there will be businesses that will get the hang of this. And in a market like the one we're in, they're going to be even more attractive to people looking for roles. So I'll hand it back to you. What do you think?

Karen Kirton  19:32

Yeah, and I think it does come down to the individuals within the business which also changes right as people leave and then start or the business grows. So I think that you know, this is not this is not a set and forget, it's not a one size fits all. And I think the size of the business is going to make a difference as well.

Lachy Gray  20:01

Yeah, absolutely. So, what have you seen work well in this spae?

Karen Kirton  20:15

So I remember in past episodes you've mentioned automatic before, so I can just refer back to that. So I remember in some past episodes, you've talked about automatic which has 1200 employees around the world. And they can find ways to get together and connect with people near where they work. And I think that's great. And it works really well with big companies, because you have that critical mass to get together locally. But, you know, with my business with amplify HR, you know, we work with companies generally between 10 and 100 employees so don't tend to have that critical mass because people are kind of living scattered around. And I've got clients that will have 30 employees where the majority want to be together every day and then I've got others where nobody wants to go to the office really. So then if you only end up with one or two people going to the office or a meet up point, then they just stopped going because they're not seeing anybody. And you know, and I've had that feedback as well. Like it just it feels depressing to people to be in the office when nobody's there. So, you know, we know that people are looking for flexibility and that's location, but it's also hours and days of work. So I think in terms of answering your question about what works. I think it's just Recognizing that loneliness could be effective for about half of our staff. If we look at those research pieces that we've talked about today. And we know that relationships are better formed and deepened through in person connections and there are two other things in psychology they call a proximity effect, which is that we're more likely to like people that are closer to us. And you know, if you think about if you've ever had a friend that's moved an hour away, and then he's just stopped seeing them even though it's only an hour away. And the other one is the exposure effect. So the more we say someone the more we like them. So, you know, I think as business owners and leaders it's important to build in opportunities for social connections, perhaps in that non forced way. And so what I am seeing at the moment is more training happening. So I think increasing the training budget to have regular development sessions where people can come together socially. And the other thing that I'm seeing happening and it's working well is moving those townhall or quarterly meetings, to in person sessions where you can actually do a little bit more than just saying, well, here are company KPIs. So perhaps that used to be you know, a one hour or two hour session is to still do the company KPIs, but then follow that up with something else. So you know, do some facilitated brainstorming or do something fun like doing a painting course together? Or you know, I've seen people set up like a trade fair idea where you can have different areas of the business, have a table where people can just walk around to learn about the other areas of the business. And you can just swap those around each quarter. But what it means is that you're all getting together for a reason and I think you know that can help to build the connections, and also mean that people aren't just going into the office and hoping that somebody will be there to build a connection with because one of the things you mentioned before, I think it's quite right for existing staff that were in the office together before you know they've already got that trust and I already know each other, but it's the new people coming in. It's much more difficult. It's actually really difficult to break into those existing groups as well. When you're not seeing them very often. So I think there's there's definitely something there that managers and leaders need to be aware of as well as introducing people because you can forget they actually started with this 10 months ago but they've never seen anybody you know, so doing the introduction and not just hey, this is Lachy as a managing director but you know, actually saying something about them. This is what they'd like to read or you know, did they they'd like to cook this thing or whatever. So you can actually start to facilitate a conversation with others, I think is important, but sorry, very long winded answer to I don't know what the answer is, but they're just something that seemed to be working.

Lachy Gray  24:55

Well, that's the thing. We're finding out together, aren't we? Yeah, there is a robot. But that is a good thing. I think this is a it's a positive thing. Yeah, I know for us are off sites, which we do twice a year. We all catch up in person have changed as well. They used to be more strategy focused with a little bit of fun activities, and now they will find activities focused. Because yeah, we just don't catch up that in person very often. So it's actually more about having a laugh together, sharing stories, getting to know each other, building rapport. That is about the strategy. And that's been a real shift in mindset for me. When I'm thinking, Well, I used to think well, yeah, I've got a really clear outcome that I want to get from this off site. And that outcome has now shifted to giving people the opportunity to get to know each other better, which is really interesting. Yeah. So we, we've covered a bit of ground we think about some takeaways. I think, for me, this is a big opportunity. Number one, I think, for us individually, still to think about our preferences, ask are we getting enough? social connection? We have a balance. Both are nice and latest about how we're feeling. If we do feel lonely, what could be contributing to that? Do we feel isolated? And for managers to similarly ask direct questions to check in and think about how they're encouraging social connection. And I think acknowledging that in person connection is important. Even if we working fully remote that when we do catch up to consider the best use of that time, and it's okay if that time is to have lunch together and can be less work in inverted commas, and more catch ups and chats which will build rapport which helps us work together when we're not in person. And also, small talk is, is important. That helps build relationships as well. And we can do that. If we're working fully remotely. It just might not be with people at work could be with a neighbor or at school, pick up Cafe, and so on. So we still have a need, I think or in person connection. What are your takeaways been? Karen?

Karen Kirton  27:46

Yeah, actually, I wrote down a sentence that you said which was having a laugh together, sharing stories and building rapport. Because I think that's a really lovely way to explain what is the benefit of in person connection. And I think the the other thing that you mentioned about asking questions of our employees, I think it's really important, and just as important, as we've talked about in other episodes is knowing what to do next with those answers. If someone says yes, I am feeling really lonely. And that's where things like having an employee assistance program can really help as well.

Lachy Gray  28:23

Sure. All right, so links to articles anything else we've discussed will be over on our websites. Just follow the links to the podcast section yano.com au, and amplifier charter Comdata. You if you've received value from this episode, we would love it if you could leave a rating or review over at Apple podcasts.

Karen Kirton  28:43

And coming up in the next episode is how do we get people to be open and speak up? And we have a special guest joining us Linda Murray.

Lachy Gray  28:53

Yeah, looking forward to that one. This podcast episode is coming up in two weeks from now. So click the subscribe button and you'll be notified of when it's available. Any final thoughts, Karen?

Karen Kirton  29:05

I think just as I'm looking at the dates we're getting to the end of the year and we're getting to the end of this series actually. So it'd be great if anyone out there has some ideas or feedback that you'd like to provide for season four, which will come back in 2023.

Lachy Gray  29:23

Yep. And in the spirit of things of receiving specific feedback. What's one thing that that we could do better next year? We'd love to hear it. Well, thanks so much for joining us. We'll see you next time on the Make it Work podcast.