Fostering Psychological Safety at Work with Special Guest Linda Murray

Transcript

Culture is a hot topic. Organizations talk about their culture in glowing terms, saying it's healthy, it's inclusive, and it's transformative.

Yet, what does that actually mean? What does a healthy culture look like? And how is it different to an unhealthy culture? One aspect that we hear talked about is psychological safety, which is the idea that people feel comfortable to show up and speak up at work. And joining us today to dive into this topic is Linda Murray.

Linda is an executive coach and leadership development expert whose obsession is creating leaders people actually want to follow. In addition to running her own businesses since the age of 22, Linda has studied psychology and philosophy and has a masters in business coaching. She is the founder of Athena Leadership Academy, which is the professional development hub for high performing and high potential leaders. And I was fortunate to receive executive coaching from Linda this year, and I learned a lot. So welcome to make it work, Linda.

Thank you. Great to be on one of my favorite podcasts. So to set the scene for us, what does a psychologically safe workplace look like? Yeah. Thank you.

Look, I think this is such a crucial topic and I'm pleased to hear that more and more people are becoming aware of it. But for those who aren't, I guess just to take us back to where it actually originated from this whole term of psychological safety. Back in 20 and 12, Google, arguably one of the best organizations in the world, realized that one of their greatest assets was actually their high performing teams. So they became quite fascinated with looking at those teams to try and work out what was it about those teams that they could then take and duplicate across the organization. And they felt like what they'd be looking for was who.

Who was on the team? Like, was there a gun key player, for example? And what they did over 2 years was a huge study of 180 teams, 37,000 employees. And what they found was it was less about who was on the team. It was actually about how those teams interacted together and what was the environment that was created by that team.

And so one of the top things was actually this concept of psychological safety. And there's a great TED talk at a similar time by a lady called Amy Edmonson, where she fleshes out this topic in more detail. But basically psychological safety talks about people's perception of the consequences of taking risks and being vulnerable in their team. So what does that look like when it's done well? People speak openly.

They're quite happy to bring cool ideas to the table. Feedback is very much part of the culture, like we know that that's important to learn and grow. And people are happy to take risks and be a bit creative and challenge the status quo, which when you think about it, that is the foundation of innovation and growth, right? We can't innovate if we keep doing the same thing over and over. And I get the essence of it is that people don't fear making mistakes because they know that they've got one another's backs if things go wrong.

So they're, you know, it's a very supportive environment and basically just based on trust and connection and that sense of belonging. Yeah. Well that deficient you've given and I've I've heard people say that it's when you don't feel that you're going to be punished or embarrassed by your teammates for speaking up, for having a new idea, for saying no to a new idea. You know, all these things that are actually quite common with us as humans as we, you know, try and do our impression management and, you know, get along with other people. So, have you ever worked in an environment like that, Linda?

Have you seen an environment really successfully show psychological safety? Yeah. Totally. I mean, I hope that I create one within my own organization. And I have seen both sides and often you don't recognize something until you've experienced the opposite.

So I've definitely worked in environments where we didn't feel safe to speak up. You know, there were so many great ideas in people's heads you could almost feel them, but the environment wasn't conducive to people speaking up. Or sadly, I work with a lot of male dominated industries. And what I hear from female leaders is if they're one of the only females around the table that you know, we all know about mansplaining and things like that. But often there would just be this natural tendency or habit for men to be more vocal.

And so the women sit quiet. They don't speak up, and when they do speak up, either it gets shut down or it gets re brought to the table as someone else's idea a few minutes later. And so ideas get shut down. We don't care. That could be a whole other episode.

I was having a conversation with someone about that yesterday. We were talking about that TV show misrepresented Yes. And how a lot of the female politicians were talking about how they would say something, and it was just completely ignored. But then a man would say it, and it was actually listened to. And and I I find that really interesting because I don't even think that the the men in the room realized that they were doing it either.

So, it's a really interesting thing that you see this again and again in different industries, don't you? Yes. And I guess the psychologically safe version of that would be if that were to happen someone would feel comfortable to put their hand up and say, yeah. Good point, Matt. Is that what Kate just shared?

Yeah. And that it's a, oh, of course. Sorry. I I guess I was just processing that. Mhmm.

Right? Where that could be flagged as, not getting someone in trouble or calling out in a passive aggressive way, but just yeah. Cool. No. I just wanted to check.

Yes. No. Great point. And I've come across unfortunately more than once where a business manager or leader will say, I have an open door policy. Anyone can come in at any time.

But then, you know, you talk to the employees and they say, oh my goodness, I would never do that because if I go in there, it doesn't go go well. It's held over me. You know, I can't put any new ideas forward. So, is there anything that employees can do as a bottom up approach to move a culture like that, or does it need to come from the top? I'd say yes and yes.

I think it's an and. So I really believe psychological safety is everyone's responsibility. Like culture is you can't just have one person champion championing a good culture. Everyone needs to live and breathe it. What I would say though is I do think it's harder for a team to feel psychologically safe when the leader is not, when they are actively practicing the opposite.

So, you know, I see this even in conversations with clients. So the good news is that, psychological safety is contagious, I believe. So people will naturally gravitate towards those who make them feel comfortable and who make them feel safe. So be that person, even if your leader isn't psychologically safe, be the person because we can influence the feeling that we create around us. So listen, you know, show care and compassion for people, have open conversations, really be curious about people and take care of the information that they share with you.

And I was having this conversation actually with a client yesterday whose leader is not psychologically safe. And sadly he is not open to feedback and also doesn't take responsibility for his own behavior. So there's a lot of deflection, a lot of blaming, things like that. And what's interesting is my client's committed to still being psychologically safe herself. And so everyone's gravitating to her.

Everyone's coming to her and sharing issues and concerns. And what's ultimately happening is the leader's isolating himself. You can almost see this, ceiling or this umbrella between her and the rest of the team and he's above it. So he doesn't have the visibility nor the connection with his people. Interesting.

Why do you think there are so many workplaces that are psychologically unsafe? Yeah. Great question. I think it's partly systemic. I think we're recovering from generations of command and control leadership styles.

I think for years when I think back to my grandfather's generation, you know, you'd study accounting and you'd enter as a junior accounting clerk, and then you'd work your way up and ultimately become partner and probably retire from the same firm. So that command and control leadership style was much more suffered than it is now. We're not we're not interested grass around, I need to cut your grass to get my way to the top. I need to push you off the ladder to my make my way north, which just is an old paradigm that isn't working. And, you know, when I think of what impacts psychologically psychological safety negatively, safety negatively, it's everything we hated at school.

Like I've got 2 teenage stepdaughters, and when I hear about their tough days, they talk about things like gossip and meanness and people being exclusive and certain girls dominating other girls. It's exactly the same thing I hear from clients in workplaces that aren't psychologically safe. You know? So it's blaming and shaming, and all that stuff becomes really toxic. Yeah.

And I guess it's interesting, isn't it, that I think there are some industries that celebrate, that more brash, aggressive, confident, personality style because there is a a strong correlation with results sometimes, and I'm assuming. And, yes, there might be some collateral damage on the way, but, hey, they're getting these financial results. So we're just gonna turn a bit of a blind eye to that. Is that is that something that you see as well? Way too much.

Way too much. The gun salesperson who brings in the most revenue, but is a total jerk and treats everyone really poorly. And I don't even because as you say, turn a blind eye, but it's far from a blind eye. Like, everyone feels it every single day. And so the fact that no one's doing anything about it is just so damaging.

It, like, doubles down on the damage that that person's doing. It's not just them. It's also the effect that no one actioning it is having on the culture. It it reinforces that this behavior is clearly okay. And so then the next person shows up like that.

Yeah. And, you know, uncertainty, I think, is another thing that negatively impacts psychological safety. And, Karen, you would see this in your HR work. So lack of expectations or lack of a vision that people feel they can buy into or unclear KPIs. People shut down.

They don't speak up in case they say something that's off the mark or sounds really silly. And then what happens individually is it puts us in this constant fight, flight or freeze state where thinking shuts down and it's not conducive to high productivity or peak performance at all. Yeah. Absolutely. And we do, staff engagement satisfaction surveys with our clients.

And one of the questions is there is how well does the organization manage poor performers? And, you know, in that, what I'm always looking for is, is there a disagree or a strongly disagree response? Because they're the ones that are putting up with that salesperson and are getting really frustrated. Whereas the neutrals, you're not so bothered by because maybe people say, well, I don't actually know because I don't know, you know, if someone's been performance manager, it's not in my business. So, but it's interesting when you get those disagrees, strongly disagree, it's like, okay, what's going on?

And usually the management team will say, oh, well, that's because of so you're right. It's not a blind eye. It's a very, very well known situation. And it also got me to thinking, you know, the other thing that will happen is sometimes the managers feel really blindsided by those survey results because they say, but, you know, but we do elicit feedback. You know, we, maybe, you know, we've got these staff forums that we have every month or we've got a newsletter.

We always ask for questions, and then they get the staff survey, which, of course, is anonymous and confidential. And they say, well, hang on. How did we not know about any of this stuff? So they can get really frustrated. So I wonder if you have, any recommendations about how a business can actually seek that feedback and and work on it as well.

Yeah. Totally. And also declare it. Because in your case, as you said, when they collect all this data and they find things they didn't know were there, how many organizations then put that under the carpet? Just pretend the survey never happened.

They don't report back. They don't say thank you for your honesty. We just pretend it wasn't really there and we keep going. It's just something to go with. So, yeah, look, I think seeking feedback should be kind of a daily activity rather than this once every 6 months pulse survey type effect.

I think those pulse surveys do serve their purpose. I think it should be an addition to much more regular feedback seeking. And so, I mean, feedback kind of has a bad reputation, doesn't it? That it only happens when something's bad or when something is not good enough. And so instead of that, I think to really, give feedback context that it is creating a learning culture.

We have a feedback culture where feedback's actually part of our DNA. I think it's really important because feedback's actually about learning and improving. And isn't that actually what we all want when we come to work each day? We wanna be able to do it better than we did yesterday. And so to use feedback as how we continue to feedback feedback to feed forward.

In our organisation. Just to keep reminding everyone of that future focus. It's about gathering info and intel that we've we've accumulated and how are we using that beneficially. And I reckon keep it simple. You know, like after each meeting or each project, what what did we do well?

What can we do even better? And sort of what support do you need from me? Right? Or another great one that I heard someone say recently was what was been the best part of your week and what's been the worst part of your week? So that you're actually creating that open conversation.

And when the leader comes and shares that some of their best and worst parts are actually in their personal life, not even at work, we're starting to create that openness, that safety. But, yeah, I think, you know, to make it feel safe, because it must as feedback when we're giving it, I think really asking someone's permission to give feedback. Don't just surprise them with something. You might say, you know, I'd love to debrief that meeting that we had today. Are you open to that?

And if you are, when would be a good time? So they get to choose when they wanna hear that. Or even seeking feedback, I think also makes feedback feel safer. Mhmm. And I think in order to do that, let's say, I've been working on hand gestures in presentations.

Right? I won't just spring it on you and say after a presentation, Karen, what were my hand gestures like? Because all you can really say is good. They were fine. Yeah.

Yeah. Exactly. Whereas if I said to you, Karen, look, I've really been working on my hand hand gestures after this afternoon's presentation. Would you be happy to catch up and just share your observations of what you saw, and if there's anything you think I can improve. Mhmm.

Now I'm gonna be watching your hand gestures for the interview. I know. I'm all. I'm just sitting on it right now. You're doing them really well.

But I'll give you some proper structured feedback later. Thank you. I've Lucky, what do you think? Because you've got a great feedback culture at Yarno. Thank you.

Yeah. I think it's certainly a a work in progress. I think for us, practicing, as you say, is super important and practicing as a team. So we you talk through scenarios and how would we actually approach it? What's the behavior that we've observed?

What's the some potential impacts of that behavior? What are some questions that we could ask the person, especially if it's critical feedback or feed forward, if I I use your term for it, which I love. Because one of the things we talk about is trying to see, let's say an event. Someone's done something to us that we didn't like. We wanna give them some feedback.

What are some potential perspectives on that? So we've got our own, and we're we're frustrated, let's say. But what could their perspective have been? And what else aren't we seeing, in this scenario? And it's interesting because it shifts the lens a little bit to away from, I know exactly what happened.

They arrived late to the meeting. They put me in a difficult position. I'm really frustrated. I'm gonna launch into some feedback as soon as this meeting finishes. 2, that's one perspective.

They did arrive late. I wonder what happened. And perhaps I can find out, and ask some questions, and assume positive intent, and then go from there. So that's a big shift for us. And even after practicing for, I don't know, 5 years we've been doing it, we still get caught out by it, that jumping to judgment.

Well, that's because they're always running late. They're they're lazy. They can't they can't manage their own time. It's really easy to assume that we know what's going on for someone and really hard to be open to some other potential causes. So that's, yeah, something that we really try to practice when we all come together.

Yeah. I love that. The taking that moment to reflect before we actually respond rather than just reacting. But also, I've, you know, to add to that, you said someone's done something to us and so therefore it makes our life hard and dah, dah, dah, is even just to sit there. So that's putting all the blame on them.

And yes, they might have been late, and that might have meant that we're in an uncomfortable position. But even just to take a moment to go, right. So what actually happened, they didn't do something to us. They did something, and then that made me feel a certain way. Right?

Assuming it wasn't malicious. And so even to go, right. So what was that triggering in me? How did that make me feel? Where's the reflection on me and how I'm showing up on?

By the way, I have missed my train today and I've actually had a really crappy morning. So could that be influencing how I'm also feeling about this right now? So take ownership for your bit in it as well. And then, as you say, getting curious and asking those questions. Mhmm.

Yeah. That's great. And I imagine if we we think about, the occurrence pulse survey example, one element to this could be the fear from a latest perspective of, well, if the feedback comes back and, it's tough to hear, and it really requires some change, but I don't know how much of that change I can actually facilitate myself. Is that a part of this, like, well, I'm I'm not gonna ask for feedback because I don't know if I can actually action it if I do receive it, and there's because there's not there isn't that psychologically safe culture. Is that something that that you think is part of it as well?

So if we're gonna get feedback that we can't action, is that systemic? Mhmm. Is it because as an organization, we literally can't? Or is it a willingness on the part of the leader? So I've always spoken like that.

I can't speak any different, for example. So I think that deserves some reflection. And also I think people are quite understanding that if you go out for feedback and 10 things come back, we can't effectively implement all 10 all at once. Right? So I think to be honest with people and say thank you so much for your honesty.

Some of it was really hard for me to hear, and it's gonna take me some time to process certain components of it. But with everything that came back, I think some of our quick wins are this, that, and the other. How do we all feel about that as a starting point? I don't know. What do you think?

Just to yeah. To call it out and to be vulnerable in that. And say, I I really do commit to changing the parts that relate to me. You know, I've heard that you believe my open door policy is not really an open door. I would love to understand more about that because I thought it was.

Mhmm. And so I'm taking that on notice that I need to understand what you need in order for it to feel like an open door because that's actually what I would like to create. And I will stuff it up and I invite you to gently share with me when I do because they're my learning opportunities. Yeah. Yeah.

I guess it's demonstrating the behaviors that you're trying to encourage everyone to to adopt themselves, and it has to I think, it has to come from the leader, doesn't it? Because as we said at the start, if if it's not, it makes it very challenging, and the leader can be isolated as a result. So I guess building on that, what is a leader's role in in psychological safety at work? Yeah. I think definitely setting the tone and really leading by example, and as you say, role modeling those behaviors that you want to see.

Vulnerability is a big part of psychological safety. And so that's not coming in and oversharing and making everyone feel uncomfortable, but sharing your past stories and maybe some things that you've stuffed up previously and what you learned from it. But also just, you know, we said at the very start, this is all kind of about being a good human. Right? So just show up as a good human and and be willing to share when you could have done things better.

I had a, one of my team come to me a little while ago with a personal issue issue and she kind of caught me off guard. It was at a time I was flat out. I was a bit distracted. I had all this other stuff in my head. I had a meeting in 10 minutes that was critical.

I couldn't change it. And so we talked it through briefly, but then that afternoon I went, wow, that was really brave of her to come to me with that. And I did not give it the airtime that it warranted. And so I emailed her back and said, look, can we catch up again this afternoon? And I just said, I'm so sorry.

Like, I really appreciate you coming to me with that. And I was in a another headspace. I really didn't give that topic or you the time and care that it deserved. Can we regroup on that? Can we circle back and go through that again?

Because it's really important to me how you feel. That's vulnerability That's saying, oops. Right? So I think definitely embracing being wrong and knowing that you don't have to get it right all the time. I heard someone say recently, my current best thinking is this on a topic.

What's your current best thinking on that topic? I thought that was really cute. It's opening up that it's just how I feel about it now. It's not to say that I'm saying what is right. Noticing behaviour.

Like even if you're, if you've got someone who usually when you meet in person, when they're on Zoom, for example, they're much quieter. You could approach them and say, I noticed you're really quiet in online meetings, which are not in person. What would help you feel more comfortable online? Is there something that's different when we're online for you than when we're in person? You know, all these, I think it's these little things that we can do every day.

It doesn't have to be a huge initiative. It's how we show up constantly that makes all the difference. And just respecting that different people even think different ways. So if you're gonna have a brainstorming meeting, not everyone likes to think on the spot. So let people know in advance what it is the meeting's about and what you're hoping to achieve.

And here's what we're gonna be throwing around to give them that time to think about it. Or if something, let's say in a meeting, something came up that was going to be a really curly problem to solve and you want to hit it in that meeting to clarify what we're talking about and say, okay, I'm gonna give you all 3 to 5 minutes. Just take your time to do your own brainstorming and then we'll socialise it later. Otherwise, we get those louder extroverts doing all the talking. Well this is really learnt behaviors for many people isn't it?

Like I as you were talking I was reflecting. It's like yeah I'd love to have a leader like that. But you know, in my experience, with really technical people that become leaders, like, this is, like, such a huge jump to not even just say the words, but to even notice those types of behaviors. And I was thinking back to, I think it was earlier this year and I was in a room with a group and a really technical manager, and I could see the person he was talking to was really close to tears. And when I spoke to him afterwards, he was completely blind to that and, like, didn't actually notice even though a lot of other people in the room did.

So I think that for some people, like, this is a really big learning of, you know, how do I even start this process? And, you know, you talked earlier about, Google's project, Aristotle, and there's a website there, rework.google.com. If anyone's interested, they've got some great resources on there. But I was also, I guess, looking for what your thinking is around or your your current best thinking. Say, I'm burnt.

It's around the, you know, the idea of trust. So, you know, even before psychological safety, we had Patrick Lencioni with his 5 dysfunctions of a team. And, you know, and, you know, he said, well, you know, trust is, like, the the biggest component that you've gotta get trust within a team to make it healthy. So how do we build that? So how do we know, do you have any recommendations for how to build that trust, particularly, you know, in environments at the moment where people are remote or they're hybrid and they're just not seeing each other that often either?

Totally. It's a trust is huge, isn't it? And so just to talk to trust first and then I'll, share my thoughts on the virtual world. Trust takes time. Right?

We can't do it in a week and also everyone's different. So I tend to trust until you've done something wrong. Whereas some people you've got to prove your trustworthiness for 3 years before they'll even start to trust. So I think even just that, understanding that everyone's different, but we almost forget that we're humans when we're at work, right? We think we go into this different mode and I don't think we should.

So think about all your personal relationships and especially the ones that you weren't born into. So like friends, intimate partner, etcetera. How do you build trust together? What was it? What were the steps or actions that might have been subconscious even that had you building trust over time?

Was it, frequency of positive experiences? Was it that you said you'd show up when you that you'd show up when you said you'd show up? You know, like all these little things, you borrowed money, you paid it straight back, whatever it is, we know how to build trust. So we just need to use those same principles in the workplace. I think showing that care and concern, genuinely, is just so important.

So be interested in people. What something with you rather than going, oh, yeah, that happened to me too. He's gonna tell me more about that. Was that hard? Right?

So that you're eliciting conversation and really creating these relationships. But I also think a big part of trust, it's a two way street. Right? So I can't expect you to trust me if I'm not sharing anything with you. So we need to demonstrate both that we are trustworthy, but that I trust you and I have generous assumptions of you and your intent.

Mhmm. I think goes a long way. And take responsibility for your own behaviour, the good, the bad, and the ugly. So as I shared previously with that, with one of my team, I felt really bad for that, for not having given her more airtime. So I circled back and I shared that with her rather than trying to make everything fine.

In terms of virtual, two words, cameras on. Yeah. I really do think it's that simple. I think one of the many silver linings of the global pandemic, one is that we innovated quickly. So in terms of psychological safety, we pretty quickly learned that good was better than perfect.

Mhmm. And so we just had to give things a go and look how how quickly we innovated. Mhmm. But but the other thing is that more than half of the message that we get from people is visual. And so we need to be able to see people to get glimpses as to what's going on for them.

You know, does he look sad today? Is he engaged? Etcetera. But also we got to know more about one another. Oh, that's a cute puppy.

I didn't know you had a dog. Oh yeah. The dog is just the love of my life. Great. Good intel.

Or great painting behind you. Oh, thanks. I painted that. Well, I didn't know you painted. Like, it was such an easy way with cameras on to really learn more about one another.

And I feel like now that we're hybrid, all that effort that we were putting in to connect virtually, we've kind of stopped, but we're not back to normal. And we'll never be back to what normal was. So I think we need to keep some of those fun initiatives that we were doing, you know, back in 2020. Keep them alive virtually to keep building those relationships. And it is tricky when you have and you know, I still come across this particular staff that just won't put a camera on.

And there so there's always a reason, oh, you know, my Internet's just really bad or, you know, or this laptop doesn't have a camera in it, which I'm kind of like, really? I didn't think they were made like that anymore. But I think, you know, it's difficult because there are some people who are just super uncomfortable being on the camera and as a leader you don't wanna force that, but at the same time, like you say, over 50% of that input is visual. So what would be your advice in those situations where you have someone that despite being asked multiple times is just not not comfortable with being on camera. Yeah.

And, look, we can't force people, obviously, but is that in itself a sign that they might not feel psychologically safe? Yeah. You know, is it that, I might have my partner walking around in the background and that really embarrasses me or something like that. So I would probably just have the conversation 1 on 1, and I would preempt and say, look. I'd love to chat with you tomorrow about the whole video thing.

You might have noticed the rest of the team have video on, but I wanna be respectful of you and your wishes. So do you mind if we talk about that? And then just say, look, how you know, what goes on? How do you feel? Please don't feel like you, it's not okay for you to to wear a hoodie on a team meeting.

Personal brand is a whole another is a whole another episode. Yeah. But, yeah, like, we all we all have a life going on behind the scenes. Right? So I would just find out what how do they feel when they're on camera?

Is there something we can do to make them feel more safe? I'd make sure they understand the why of having cameras on so that we can connect. And I would almost like, and having your camera off to walking into a meeting room and swiveling your chair around and having your back to everyone at the table. Yeah. You know, we wouldn't do that.

So when everyone's got cameras on, why would you not? Mm-mm. But we need to under there's a reason why not. There's a reason. Yeah.

That's make it safe for them to share that. So just building on what we've been talking about, Linda, if if an organization recognizes that its culture isn't as safe as it needs to be, where do you recommend that they start? I think the first thing is to try and find out why. Right? Why are we not feeling safe?

So this could be just asking people if they're happy to share or using an anonymous survey. Maybe if we're gonna do that, making it really overt that it's not gonna be, you know, commercial suicide to share even anonymously. Gather through that process. And as we said before, work together as a team, gather through that process. And as we said before, work together as a team to solve the problem.

The team is not the problem. The vibe going on is a problem, and we as a team, need to work together to solve that. So the other thing is even just sharing the concept of psychological safety with the team. Like, you know, Karen just mentioned a great resource that, you will share is it's a great conversation starter to go. What even is this?

How's this playing out in our team? And is are there things that we can do better? You know, what are those psychologically safe behaviors that we would like to see? What are the behaviors that are showing up that we'd like to get rid of? And we don't wanna name and blame individuals.

Keep it very high level and conceptual, but I think calling out the behaviors that we wanna see and celebrate when we do them well. And when we see non psychological safe behaviors in action, again, we need to call those out, but do it in a safe way. Pulling something aside the next day for example and just saying look did you notice how Bill responded when you said that? Mhmm. Yeah.

Yeah. And I can see how going on that journey together is always the first first part of it rather than saying, we're not psychologically safe and we need to be, so here's how we're gonna be. Yes. Actually having that collaborative process, asking the questions and leveling the playing field, I guess, and saying, hey, we don't we don't know the answers either. So we're learning to we're open for the feedback.

Some of it's gonna be hard to hear. That's okay. We need to to do this to be able to move forward together on a I imagine that process in of itself, yeah, is a first step towards this environment that we're gonna create. Yes. And to acknowledge everyone is different, and so seek out what they need to feel safe.

Mhmm. And there's no silly responses to that question. Mhmm. And, of course, as a leader, role model, those behaviors every day. Awesome.

We've covered a lot of ground today, Linda. I really enjoyed speaking with you. Some takeaways from my perspective, the things I heard you say, certainly modeling the behavior that we want to see, being vulnerable and showing up as we are. I agree. It's easy to forget that.

Put the mask on when we're at work. Starting small, the language tweaks, sharing context, these are things that we can do right now. And that trust takes time, and it is two way. So let's be realistic about that, but have it as a certainly as something to work towards. Karen, how what are some takeaways for you?

So I wrote down current best thinking because I love that. I'm gonna, start to try and practice using that. So sorry if someone's trademarked it out there. I also I really liked how you talked about how we all build trust differently. So I think, you know, we do think about the fact that trust takes time, but maybe we don't actually consider that we do do it differently as well as individuals.

I thought that was really, helpful. And also just, yeah, the the camera's on. So I think you're right. We've gotten into some bad habits because we we tried really hard, you know, for a year and a half or 2 years or whatever. And then people started to get back into the office.

They start to see each other more socially. And so then you can just kind of dropping back into the, oh, it doesn't quite matter anymore. We don't need to have those funny little Slack channels. You know, we don't need to have that Friday trivia anymore. Whereas actually maybe we do still need some of that, and we still do need to recognize that those visuals are really important.

Yeah. And, Linda, what are your takeaways that you'd like to leave our listeners with from this episode? Good question. Just keep being human. Really, like, be come to work with the same open heart that you have when you're at home.

Don't feel like you need to shift gears. Obviously, we've we have to be professional and what have you, but that doesn't mean that you have to put on, you know, a shield or a mask. If someone sounds sad or looks sad, then, you know, ask them if they are alright. Or if you do something that you, didn't mean to do, then call yourself out on it. I think it is a daily practice.

You know, culture and email, conversation. It's the sum of all of them. Email, conversation. It's the sum of all of them. And so just keep doing your bit to keep creating that safe culture.

Fantastic. Thank you. Well, links to articles and anything else we've discussed will be on our websites, yano.com.au and amplifyhr.com.au, just via the links to the podcast section. If you've received value from this episode, we'd love it if you could leave a rating or a review over at Apple Podcasts. And you can get in touch with Linda at her website, athenaleadershipacademy, that's all one word, dot com.au.

Or she's also on LinkedIn, linkedin.com/in/linda Murray athena, all one word. Thank you so much for joining us today Linda. I've really enjoyed it and coming up in our next episode is Thinking diversity and we're going to be talking with the CEO of Herman Australia Michael Morgan. Yes. So that podcast episode's coming up in 2 weeks from now.

Click the subscribe button, so you'll be notified of when it is available. Any final thoughts, Karen? Perhaps we do a season 4 with Linda. I've had the same thought. Yeah.

Pleasure. I look forward to it. Well, thank you so much for joining us, and we'll see you next time on the Make It Work podcast. Thank you both.