Why it is Important to Add Creativity Into Upskilling in the Workplace

Transcript

Karen Kirton  00:00

As we've discussed in prior episodes, the future of jobs report from the World Economic Forum has the top 10 skills for 2025, including creativity, originality, and initiative. And this can be challenging to know how to upskill our teams in a skill that many people assume is in eighth. And they think that you're either creative or you're not. So to help dispel that myth, and help us to see how we can all be creative and why it's important to add this into workplace development programmes, is today's guest about Howard. Amal is the writer, director and performer as a journalist. She's contributed to publications such as the Guardian and The Sydney Morning Herald, and Frankie and Amal is the author of eight books, both fiction and nonfiction fiction, including her next novel, bitter and sweet, which will be released in August 2023. And you're also the author of a card deck called the creatives compass and navigation tool for creatives. So, welcome to our podcast.

Amal Awad  00:59

Thanks for having me.

Karen Kirton  01:01

Thank you, I'm really happy that you're joining us today. And I just finished one of your fiction books, the things we see in the light, which I really enjoyed. And particularly, there's a moment in the book where the main character Sahar is watching chocolate being tempered. And she says how it had her creative brain awakening from a slumber. And I love this because so many adults consider themselves as not creative. And I know when I run a workshop, and it's called Creative Problem Solving. And I'll ask people in the room, what do you see yourself as creative, and maybe only 5% of people put their hand up? So as someone who may be labelled as a creative, do you also find this? And why do you think that's the case?

Amal Awad  01:42

Yeah, I think that creativity is a misused word, I think that everyone thinks a creative as an artist or writer or singer or dancer, and absolutely, they are. But I think that the actual essence of what creativity is, is using your brain to problem solve, to come up with ideas, to innovate in life, in general, in your everyday life, it's not just something we apply to artistic endeavours. And I think that if we could perhaps reclaim the word a little bit to say, actually, everybody has that innate creativity, and it doesn't even have to be awakened, I think we're using it all the time, we just seem to have this spectrum where we think there's the sexy kind of creativity, you know, the artists who's struggling and sad, and you know, you know, sort of dipping into their despair, and all these sorts of things, versus the person who's the engineer, or the IT person or, you know, they're everything we do requires us to think creatively. And when we don't, we're stagnant when maintenance sort of phase of life where nothing is changing. And I don't think that's necessarily a healthy way to be for too long. So that's what I think is happening with creativity. I think that people just need to realise that actually, it's calling on you all the time. There's always a need to be creative in your life. And just, there's just the sexy version, and then there's the not so sexy version. Yeah.

Lachy Gray  03:11

Yeah, I think that that resonates with me, because I think I don't think of myself as, as especially creative. But I think I appreciate the kind of relabeling of it, and just saying, Hey, this is something that we can all do. And it doesn't have to be about your profession. And if your profession is creative, it's interesting, because I've got young kids see how they interact with their environment, their learning machines, they have a lot of fun. I would think that they are creative, because they view things from such a unique perspective. They don't know how it should be done. So they say, let's do it this way. I think that's pretty cool. And it makes me wonder, is it a skill or a trait that that we do share yet get de prioritised or devalued? When we're young when we kind of lose it? Do you think?

Amal Awad  04:02

Yeah, I think that, that it actually just it's funny that you mentioned children, they're so innocent, right? And unnecessarily nice to people. Kids can be, but there's an innocence to their worldview, you know, they don't have all the baggage yet of, you know, the teenage years, and the 20s, and 30s, and all this sort of thing. And so, as a result, it's almost like they're not encumbered with sort of what they should be doing. It's very pure, their approach to things. And I feel like that we can be informed by that essentially, like this idea of, what if I don't label everything or even it's, it's much more an intuitive process, I suppose, is what I'm trying to get at. And so if adults just accepted that, actually, we are innately being asked in every moment to be creative, in a sense, it kind of like it no longer becomes a thing we're doing. It's something we are. And so I actually think we're creative beings. And so I that's what I would invite you people to think of it as it's something that you don't have to be so conscious of it. It's just something you do naturally. Does that make sense? I don't know if that makes sense. Yeah, that to make it a thing that's on posters, and this is the way you do something, you know, when I did an interview, once, where they were asking me, Well, what's an idea? And it's actually thinking idea a lot of the time is a solution to a problem. You know, usually people come up with ideas when they're trying to figure out how to get something done. Like they invent, because something is missing, you know, a gap in what they need in that moment. And it's sort of that idea that not everybody's an inventor, but we're always inventing solutions. And especially you Lachy, you mentioned, you're a parent, I imagine you have to be constantly creative with your children that they don't want to eat how to, to clean the room that they don't want to clean. You know, a friend of mine was telling me the other day that her son is afraid of zombies. And so her partner created a zombie Zapper. And so I think that's really fun and creative and interesting. And it's something that naturally probably flowed out of him, not something, he really sat down and thought, Well, how do I get my son to do it and wrote like, 20 bullet points, he probably just figured, well, how do I tackle the fear?

Karen Kirton  06:27

Because sometimes I do wonder, and I don't know if schooling is like this, these days, I suspect it still is a little bit. But you know, when I was at school, it was math and science and English, really, that were very highly valued. And, you know, arts, for example, was always something that you just did as an optional on the side. And, you know, it had to be the really arty people that did it. And I wonder whether that's part of why so many of us say, Oh, we're not creative, because through schooling, we've been taught creative, is that more sexy, creative that you were saying? So how would you encourage people to remove those kinds of personal blocks to creative thinking and start to develop the creative muscle a little bit?

Amal Awad  07:10

I think actually doing something that is probably more akin to a hobby on the side will awaken that in them a lot. I think that, you know, it's just funny, because you were just saying about the arts perceptions. I think part of the issue is that there is that separation. And when I was at university a while ago, now, I did arts law. And I remember the joke when I was in high school was, you see the word arts degree on toilet paper, please take one and it was being really self conscious about that, too. Because yeah, they they completely derided this idea of having an arts degree. And it's just interesting to me, because STEM is so respected, and create, like creativity, yet sexy when you're successful. But when you're not successful, it's it's like your bum, you're not doing anything with your life get real. It's a joke that you know that, you know, I remember I did an acting class for just one day. And it was really funny, because they were like, Why are you here today? And it was only the kids from like, migrant minority households who were like, well, my parents made me do a degree first. And now I've finished that. So now I'm here to track. All of the white kids were like, you know, 10 years younger than us. It was so informative to me, because it was instructive. You know, because I thought this is so interesting, like, the value we place on degrees that have a very, like, you can verify what this person does. Whereas creativity seems so amorphous and boundless. And what is that? What are you actually doing? And honestly, really, it is hard living? For people, it's hard to make a living out of being an artist or writer. It's very, there are very few people who can really, when you think about the world's population would be a very small percentage. We're comfortably living off an arts, yes, or creative life. So but thing is creativity is available to us every day in in just anything we do. And so I think that doing things that feel more, not necessarily therapeutic, but almost cathartic things that allow for release of tension and stress. Things that don't call on us to think actually lead us in a way towards things that are more enjoyable because we we sort of break open that way when when there's no pressure on us to deliver results. So for example, you just want to go do your yoga class, or you do a painting class where there's no outcome. There's no measurable outcome for that, except you get to sit down for an hour and do something that you enjoy. It does something to you, you start to feel like well, I really enjoyed that. And I, I just want to feel that way all the time. And I think that creativity gives people a sense Have not controlled but there's a power in it, you know that actually, I'm not at the mercy of a spreadsheet, I'm not at the mercy of what my company demands of me. I'm actually here to add value to my company. And how do I do that it's with my unique worldview and my unique abilities, the things that I do really well, and everybody has those talents, we just have to figure them out. And I think they get a little bit drowned in sort of, I don't know if that's the right word, but they they sort of submerge sometimes because, you know, there's a lot of mottos and sayings and things that we all have to be on the same page with. It's just not how we operate. We're all unique, we need to lean into what makes us unique, and what is that special thing that will help you stand out, not only stand out, but add something that stands out?

Karen Kirton  10:50

It will the business is not going to be successful if no one in your business is creating and having new ideas and being innovative, right. So you know, it's something that does need to add value to the business. And that's through people actually recognising their creativity and themselves.

Amal Awad  11:08

Well, that's not just I'm not just doing this for some unknown knowns. And then in a faraway office, I'm doing this because it's my talent coming out of me into this task. That's such a powerful feeling. And I'm here and I'm getting paid, and I'm just ticking off boxes for somebody else. Yeah. Yeah.

Lachy Gray  11:28

Yeah, it's interesting. When you're talking about the results, or the results oriented, here we have our culture is like that, especially in the Western world, businesses like that, how we spend our time thinking about what the outcome, what's the quantifiable result I've got from this, and I can say, hey, I spent this time and I've got this. And yeah, I think we're not so good. Are we spending leisure time and just doing something for the inherent joy, and how it makes us feel, and I imagine that creativity is, is in that kind of categories, like, well, in the creative process, it takes time, and you need to be able to make mistakes, and you're gonna produce stuff you're not too happy with. And it might be at the end of that session. It's like, ah, yeah, maybe I don't have anything I want to show. But that needs to be okay. So, I'm curious, like, how do you sort of shift that mindset from if we are operating within this result oriented kind of culture? How do we shift our mindset.

Amal Awad  12:36

And one of the important things is to know your blind spots, and another belief, because it's a blind spot, but look for them, like, because I know, for example, that there's a certain amount of time, if I spend it on social media, it's not great for me, like, you know, it does something to me, it takes me to another place that is not necessarily healthy. And so I would say that, you have to sort of minimise the negative forces, that kind of make you doubt yourself that make you feel bad about yourself, that maybe just lean into the things that aren't great, you know, so, you know, one of the things that I was thinking of when you were just talking like he was that people were those watches now that sort of measure everything, you know, they tell you how many steps you've taken, they tell you, and like I'm part of a health insurance organisation that like, they want me to link my phone, like my one programme to them, so that they can tell me how many points I'm getting for my health and all this sort of stuff. And it just, I find that stuff really overwhelming. Because what's going to happen is I'm going to start becoming a slave to that, you know, like, Oh, I haven't gotten enough points today. And so these things are really, they weigh us down. So whatever is weighing you down, try to shift those things. Because what we want is to feel a sense of freedom in how we see things and how we're responding to things. And we want to be more proactive, rather than reactive. And I think at the moment, a lot of what's happening is we're reactive people. We are we're in a sort of fight flight. Right expression, fight flight mode. We mean, the anxiety is off the charts for people. I mean, you just need to look at what we're talking about in the news, post COVID bubbles and things like that, you know, with good reason. We're stressed out, you know, it's not, it's not that it's an imagined thing. This is there's a lot of quantifiable evidence that we are not necessarily doing well mentally, right now. And I don't know, what is better for that than to find a creative outlet that liberates you, in some sense, where you feel like you belong to you, again, where you feel like there's some expression of the self that comes out in that and it's really healthy, and that trickles into all aspects of your life. It actually isn't something that you just do for that one hour. Hopefully, it has a cumulative effect so that the more you do something that you enjoy it where you find your unique self, you know that that thing that, you know is different to everybody else around you. It starts to like just soften you in a way where you're no longer about the goals that don't really matter to you. And I think that's happening a lot. We kind of measure ourselves against other people, it's just impossible not to sometimes because we're surrounded by success stories, and a lot of them aren't real, a lot of what we say. And I've worked in media for years, and I can tell you that I've met some of the most successful people. And they are so ordinary and human. It's it's quite funny to me that we put people on a pedestal so much and just ask anyone Don't Don't, don't meet your idol as they say, Mr. Mystery, and that's because they're human. And they're allowed to be human. But so much of what we're seeing is smoke and mirrors now, actually.

Karen Kirton  15:57

Yeah, I agree. I was on the train this week. I find it so interesting watching people, that's obviously why I'm in HR, because I'm interested in people but on the train, everyone's on their phones, and just watching the amount of can I call them young people these days, that actually just taking constant photographs of themself, and then putting like a couple of words on the photo, but obviously send it to people, I don't know what app it is, because I'm not dealing with the cool stuff. But you know, I was sitting behind this guy, and like, he spent the entire half an hour on the train, just sending continual photos. And I was like, wow, this is how we're communicating. Now, like, this is how we're spending our free time,

Amal Awad  16:38

we're documenting experience actually experiencing them. And so, you know, I've seen that happen a lot, for example, at concerts, I don't particularly going to them as much now. Because all it is is the same cameras, same phone in front of you. And I think that I kind of understand that there are going to be generational differences because technology is so advanced now. And I'm very grateful I grew up at a time when I sound so old now. But I'm, I am grateful that I had that experience where we didn't have phones, actually. Because I, I understood screen time was a very different thing. Like it was the Brady Bunch at 530. I'm really showing my age now.

Karen Kirton  17:20

But we're all the same age, I think.

Amal Awad  17:24

I'm so amazed at, you know, I see so much beauty as well, and how children are using technology and be clever about it. And it's great. Like I'm all for evolution, like I don't think that we need to be the same as we were in the 80s and the 90s. But I just feel like I think you will see, hopefully, a paring back of that behaviour, I think you'll see people kind of going let's be retro, and actually just, you know, do things a bit more bare bones and not so much. You know, and there's so much discussion now about AI and all of the fears around AI and AI has been around for ages, we just we've been using it in different ways, as not to say that we shouldn't have concerns about it, especially as it relates to copyright and things like that. But I just feel like with with creativity in general, it does require you to shut down that phone, it does require you sometimes to do that to not be like I need to let people know I'm being creative. So what does that saying, if a tree falls down in the forest, and no one sees it didn't happen, you know, or photo or didn't happen, you know, that kind of thing. I'm I'm really private as a creative. So I don't ever talk about my process while I'm in it. I think the only time I did that was when I was writing beyond valid cliches and I was really stuck. I was really scared of writing the book because I had like 80 interviews. And I'm like that felt like a good idea at the time to get a lot of interviews. To sit down and write it I was freaking out because it just felt so, so overwhelming for me. And I remember I bought like, I bought like chocolate blocks like Cadbury blocks or something. And I posted a photo of the blocks and I said writer's block, because I was like, I thought it was funny. And it actually just helped me sort of lighten my own mood. But that was about it. Like I don't get up and say, Oh, I had a great day riding today. I just don't. I just feel like it's such a precious bubble. And so let's let's talk specifically about say writing a book or creating an artwork or something like that. I honestly think that the ones who really treasure that process, don't share it because they don't want it tainted. They don't want anybody interfering with that process. And I think that's a really quality approach. Like I really think that's a high quality approach. But when it comes to let's say your everyday creativity, once in a while, I think you'll find that you want to share your idea immediately with someone for something. And I would also caution people to be careful there because all it takes is for one person to say oh really no, that sounds stupid or that's not great. And then it shuts you down and I've made that mistake as well. And so that's why I'm a very private person. I give my ideas room to breathe first before an eye test. For myself, because sometimes something feels like a wonderful idea. And then you leave it for a couple of days, and you're like, actually, it's not as great, but I can see what I was thinking. And I can now elevate that idea. And so that's when you start to share it, when you actually know you have more confidence. It's pliable in a way that's healthy, it's not going to break.

Karen Kirton  20:18

Yeah. So and I guess, on that theme, you know, if I'm a leader in an organisation, and you know, I've got people on my team who are spending their train rides into the office, you know, documenting their lives, and we've got our smartwatches on and we're counting our steps. And, you know, so there's a lot of people just like, in basically, game three all day just getting their dopamine hits from all their different devices that they've got. So so as a leader, like, what would be your advice? Like? How do we embed creativity in an organisation to help drive the innovation in the business, but also to help our employees just explore that in themselves personally, as well?

Amal Awad  20:57

Yeah, I think that I mean, a company's culture really, it's, it's such a strange thing, isn't it? I remember when I was, I'm actually looking for some, some work, as I told you earlier. And I was looking at one particular ad at something and they said something like, this is suitable for someone who doesn't mind a high volume of work, something like that. And I thought, What a strange way to tell me that you're going to overwork me, lead to me, not a healthy environment. And I remember speaking to someone about that particular place, and they said, Oh, no, don't go there. And I didn't actually apply my instinct was I don't want a place that tells me in advance that they're going to overwhelm and stress me out in a stressful environment. I don't think it's great just because they admit it, you know, it's. So I think it's really important to sort of build a culture that is, is going to give you the greatest success that you have, but that is going to foster wellbeing across your organisation. And if we can just sort of be a bit more expansive in our thinking and go, Okay, I want my employees to feel like their life belongs to them the job that they do, and that they can do it really well, if that their life in general, is something that they when they wake up in the morning, they feel not a sense of anxiety, but a sense of potential, you know, like my day can lead to something great today. And if not, that's okay, too. It doesn't have to be a wonderful day, it can be a good day. You know, I've been in a lot of workplaces in my time. And I can tell you, the ones that I loved and I can tell you the ones that I felt like I was just another number. Yeah.

Lachy Gray  22:34

Yeah. Are there any any examples that you can share of workplaces that you've seen where you've seen this, like, done? Well,

Amal Awad  22:44

I was at a workplace. I won't name the actual workplace. But I will say that I was in a position there that I was really happy doing. It was in an editorial position. And what I loved about that place was I was not micromanaged. There was a lot of trust that I had been hired to do a job and that I was capable of doing it. And so I manage my hours. And that was the job where I was able to go during my lunch hour to the gym and get my exercise in, I became a lot healthier. And that job, I was able to change so many aspects of my lifestyle. And that was because I was not micromanaged. I was an I delivered my work on time without fail. Like I was very good at that job. But I also grew up in that job because I was told very early on, we hired you because you can do this, we didn't hire you. Because we don't trust you. Like it's up to you now don't come to us, like my manager at the time and said don't come to me with things. When you know the answer. It was a big organisation. It wasn't like massive, it wasn't a huge corporation or anything. But it was big enough that everybody had different lifestyles, different jobs, different demands. So I was particularly, I think, Lachy to be in the team I was in. But I always felt like it had a pretty chill atmosphere, because everybody who was there was there to do a particular job. They knew what their job was. And they manage their time.

Karen Kirton  24:05

And I'm just reflecting on what you were saying there. Because you know, that ability to manage our time is so important in terms of how we we feel trust in the workplace. And, you know, going going back to the idea of creativity in the workplace, and how do we make time for that? Last night actually went out with the team and we did one of those, you know, Pino Picasso things where you do a poll. And it was hilarious, because none of us are painters. And, you know, we actually just had a really great time being, you know, really poor painters. But it was fun. And that was one of the things that we wanted to do was like, Okay, we need to find a way to bring in more creativity and adventure into our lives is what we decided at our last two meetings. So we thought, you know, that's the way to do it. Someone else said we should go skydiving but I was like, No, we're not doing that.

Amal Awad  24:55

You're allowed to suck at things. It's like I'm good at it. It's about Unlike this, it's fun. Yeah, I suck a lot of things I still doesn't matter. And in our last

Karen Kirton  25:08

episode, lock it out actually talking about, we both do a lot of personal development from reading. We're both quite big readers. So I'm curious, what are you reading now? Or what was the last thing that you read?

Amal Awad  25:20

I'm prepared today, because I did an ABC interview the other day all about reading and they said, what's on your bedside table? And my answer was, I don't have books on my bedside table. And that was the truth. And I was struggling to think because when I write, I don't read a lot. Because I, I find that the voices of other writers get into my head, and then I start to imitate them, which I think a lot of authors struggle with sometimes. But I actually do have my books here. So I'm actually because I'm sort of a bit on a directing path as well. I am reading a book called directing actors by Judith Weston. And this is actually a book that was recommended to me years ago. And then when I did a director's attachment last year with Annika nos. She also said, You need to redirecting actors by Judith West. And I was like, well, actually, so I'm finally reading that book that I was used to read a long time ago. And then on the fiction front, because I'm finding that I don't really want to sit down and read a whole long novel now, after having just written one. I like sometimes dipping into short stories. And so I have this one by Carmen Maria Machado, her body and other parties and actually bought that one years ago and started reading it in bits and pieces, because it's short, they're short stories. And so I liked that. So yeah, that's what I'm reading. But I mean, I read a lot of stuff that sort of about the esoteric about sort of the path of life. I just love I love nonfiction as well, I actually got asked what do you prefer fiction or nonfiction and as well, they said, If you had to pick between one I know I love writing fiction, but I actually love reading nonfiction because it forms my fiction better than fiction does. Bob Woodward, he wrote a lot of he wrote about two or three books about Trump. And so I'm doing those on audio, though, because then

Karen Kirton  27:01

I want to thank you for joining us today, it's been really interesting to me lots to reflect on, in terms of my takeaways, what I wrote down, one of the things that you said was, you know, we need to reclaim the word creative. And I think that's a really important takeaway. For people, it isn't just a sexy creative, it's not just making really bad paintings that I'm a painter and Picasso. You know, it is actually about coming up with ideas and creative thinking in other ways. It doesn't need to be the sexy creative. And you said, you know, find a creative outlet, so you can belong to you, again, and I think that's really powerful. And my third one was, you know, as a business owner, or leader is to consider that our team members are human beings, and their life belongs to them. And this is the job that they do. Because I've certainly come across business owners who get frustrated, because why don't my employees have the same level of care and importance as I do for my business? Like, well, that's because it's your business. So So I think that's really important to say, Well, yeah, this is actually a job that they're doing. But you can help them wake up with a sense of potential. And I think that's a really lovely way to put it. How about you Lachy?

Lachy Gray  28:13

Yeah, I think creativity in all areas of life are like, rather than a profession, or a skill that you either have, or you don't have, you know, it's not a binary thing. It could remind us to do things for enjoyment rather than outcome. And encouraging people to bring their real self to work and thinking, as leaders, how can we create an environment where people are comfortable to do that?

Karen Kirton  28:39

And am I was anything else that you wanted to?

Amal Awad  28:42

Yeah, I just wanted to say that I actually think we don't have to search very far, often for what we enjoy doing, we usually know. But you know how, because we have no problem spending time on it. Like if we had time in the world, and we could just do that all day, we will do it. And I actually think give yourself permission to not want to do something out of the way creative. Like you don't have to want to paint or sing or dance or whatever. But why not try those things? But also, why not really follow up on the things that that call to you. And you'll know there's a little tug that you get in your belly when you see something you know, on Instagram, or Facebook or you read about it. And you're like, I don't know why I just feel like that. Sounds really cool. I want to try it out.

Karen Kirton  29:23

Great advice. Thank you. So thank you so much for joining us. And we're going to put links to your website and where people can buy your latest book as well over on our websites, which is amplify hr.com au and yano.com.au. We've also got our new link tree, which is link tr.ie/make it work podcast. So you can go to there and you can get those links as well. And we also got a special offer on there for our podcast listeners. And if you've received value from this episode, we'd love it if you could leave a rating review over at Apple podcasts.

Lachy Gray  30:02

Coming up in our next episode, Karen and I are reading a book called machines behaving badly. And we're going to have a chat about it.

Karen Kirton  30:11

Yeah, it's our very own book club to first on the Make it Work podcast. But we're having a couple of weeks break for the school holidays. So that podcast episode is actually coming out in four weeks from now rather than our usual two. So click on the subscribe button and you'll be notified when it's available. Any final thoughts Lachy?

Lachy Gray  30:30

Well, also a question for our listeners. I guess what's, what's something you can do for enjoyment today?

Karen Kirton  30:36

Yeah, I like it. Thank you so much for joining us and we'll see you next time on the makeup work podcast.