Unlocking Growth: Developing Career Paths in Small Business

Transcript

Karen Kirton  00:01

Despite the economic climate, we're still experiencing skills shortages and a tight employment market in Australia. And if we want our businesses to be sustainable, we need to be able to attract and keep great people. There's a lot of research available as to what employees are looking for. So in this episode, we're gonna focus on how smaller businesses can help develop their team members and consider career pathways as a way that you can attract and keep people in your business. So I start with a recent smart companies slash employment here at report, they looked at what they're calling the smart 50 workplaces are doing in relation to the employment experience. And with learning and development, specifically, the stats are that these businesses are saying that 78% of them have internal training programmes 74% of training budgets, just over half have mentoring programmes and certification programmes. And then there was 24% in that delightful other bucket. So quite high numbers. Does that surprise you Lachy?

Lachy Gray  01:13

Yeah, interesting. I guess it's specifically asking about keeping staff skill sets up to date. Yeah, I mean, one part of me thinks that the training programmes would have been higher than 78%. And it's interesting that the training budgets is lower than 74%. I thought that so. Yeah. And, and that might be the businesses really approach learning quite differently. Sometimes it's its own function. With a with its own budget, sometimes that budget is shared across the business, sometimes it's a combination. So yeah, you're always gonna get sort of discrepancies like that. Mentoring programmes, 54%, that probably feels about right. Certifications. Interesting. I'm not sure exactly what those certifications are, if they're internal or external. But I think there's probably Yeah, an opportunity, like the informal upskilling, which I'm assuming happens a fair bit. Like, where am I? How is that represented? I'm sure.

Karen Kirton  02:29

Yeah, maybe that's in that other bucket? And could be, as you say, the wording of the question. It's, well, it was actually talked about what resources do you have in place. And so perhaps people were thinking about that informal learning. There. One of the other key takeaways of the report was looking at what are the three most common benefits that Job Hunters won. The first was competitive salary, which is not a surprise, given the economy. And we've seen that in other research as well. Then number two was paid training and development, which was actually above number three, which was work from home flexibility, and support. So I actually found that interesting that it's not work from home flexibility and support to number three. But maybe that's because that's just a given and an expectation these days. But when the other thing is that I found quite interesting was this term career cushioning which they talked about, which is a term of upskilling as an employee's so that you are employable if you're made redundant. And apparently, this is more common in younger workers, so 18 to 24 years old. And they said that they're 9% more likely to be seeking mentorship. 14% more likely to be seeking freelance work, and 33% more likely to be expanding their skill set. So I thought they were interesting statistics to reflect on. So as a small business owner, Lachy, how do you try to accommodate career aspirations of your team members?

Lachy Gray  03:58

Hmm, yeah, this is something I think about a lot. I think I've really changed my perspective on it over time. You know, we're seven years now. No, seven years, young this year. And, yeah, I think I'm also surprised that training development is in number two spot ahead of working from home flexibility. But like you say, remote work, flexible work, is becoming table stakes, I guess, which is a positive change. Really driven, I think by by COVID. Yeah. Yeah, I think as a small business owner, it's easy to look at all the challenges and downsides of being small. So we often don't have a learning function. We don't have an l&d resource. We don't have the budget for that type of person. We don't have lots of support functions in place. It Typically being put on top of someone else's responsibilities, their existing job, anything, how am I going to do this? So where do I go for help? On this, I have to do it all myself, I'm trying to run a business. Now, I think there's also an opportunity to reframe that. Small businesses have a lot of benefits. I think the flip side to being small and not having big hierarchy, lots of functions is that you have the opportunity to experience many different types of job functions, job roles, help out in a small business, though, there's always so many jobs to be done. And people aren't necessarily expected to stay in their lane and saying, Well, that's not part of my responsibilities. I know, do that go and talk to it, say, Well, no, that's, we've got to find a solution to that. Do you want to? Do you want to do it? Oh, okay. So, I think we that through that lens, I really, I really look at small businesses as a great opportunity to upskill and grow your career. I think having the conversation is a really important first step, it can feel scary if you're like, how am I going to support my staff. But I think having that conversation, to getting clarity on where they want to be, and talking about how we can help them get there is important. And last year, we introduced career conversations. After we read Kim Scott's book, radical candour with the goal of trying to better understand people's motivations and aspirations. So the career conversations are in three parts. The first one talks about their career two days. So why they took on certain jobs, what they did and didn't enjoy, in each job, what they learned and why they left, then the second session is future focus. So where do they want to be? In 510 years time? That classic question, it can be difficult to answer. So some people, in my experience have a specific role in mind, head of a particular business function, running their own business, some people don't. So for them, it might be more about the responsibilities and really drawing on their strengths, or working with a particular group of people, you know, social impact, for example. And then the third session is comparing the current and future states, looking at the gaps, and talking about what skills and experience can be developed to help them get there. Now, part of this is scary for the business owner, because that role, and those responsibilities in the future, probably aren't in their business. So you can feel as though you're investing in someone who is going to live. And the mindset I took, though, is that I want to do everything I can to develop my team, when they're at ya know, that they're going to leave when they're ready to. So this process was really good because it identified skills and experience that we could work towards. Because I used to think, oh, this person wants this senior role, or they're going to want their senior role. And we just don't have that. Because due to our size. So now we identify these skills. And then we look at them and say, Okay, well, what can we do, whether individually. So we give everyone $500 a year for their individual learning, they can spend that on whatever they like, might be team learning. For example, were brought in to do whole brain thinking training with you, Karen in October as a as the whole Yano team. And then there's lots of informal learning. And probably the majority of learning we do is informal. So someone might go to a conference, they come back, they share what they learned with the team. They might do a short presentation on topic they're interested in lunch and learn. So those experience shares, like they're all quite achievable. So it doesn't need to feel like this big structured thing. Instead, I think, if we understand what we're trying to achieve and where we're going, it's an ongoing dialogue, you know, over hopefully many years to help each team member grow.

Karen Kirton  09:31

Yeah, and I think what you said a lot of really good things there. I made some notes for our takeaways later. But I think what you've shown is it doesn't have to be this big monster process, you know, team that's in your business, helping to develop staff and it can just be picky. Okay. You know, what's the one thing that we're going to focus and do intentionally, which is like those career conversations? And then how do we support that we think This, like the individual learning and having some team sessions, etc. So I think that's great. And I just love that you have career conversations, you know, so many businesses, and leaders that, you know I've met with over the years don't have this as part of their processes. And it isn't a difficult thing. Like I think, you know, the process that you use using radical candour is awesome. If people don't want to read the book and have worked out, you don't have to do that. Because you can really just have an intentional conversation with your employee. And I know when we discuss talent with leaders, and now you usually have at least one person who's the one, you know, the one person's business, you absolutely have to keep them. They're totally critical. And when I ask her what are their career aspirations? I would say more than 80% of the time the leader doesn't know. They've never asked the question. And usually they'll say, oh, I don't know, I've never asked them. And it's not that it's intention, or we just forget to ask or, you know, sometimes we assume it because as a small business, we can't give them a career path. Or let's just not ask the question, because as you say, it can be difficult. You know, what happened with the answer if I can't meet it. But I think you know, in saying all that, if we look at another interesting report from workday, which were released at the end of last year, and it was about why people quit. And number six was that people leave when they don't see a path for personal development. And I think that's a really interesting sentence to reflect on, it's when they don't see a path. And most interesting was that nine months before quitting, employees actually show a decline in their responses when they're asked questions related to their ongoing development. So questions related to their own development, seeing career path for development, their job, enabling them to learn and also having a mentor. So that's nine months before they quit, they start showing in these surveys, that they're less satisfied across all of those areas of growth. So, you know, I think there's a big lesson here for businesses to understand that it isn't necessarily about having a certain set career path and the ability to move. But it's that perception that I'm growing my career, it's having that path. That's really important. And so when I was reading through that, you know, we have templates that we share with our clients around like long term career path planning, for example, where you pick, okay, what's the thing that you want to do in the next three years or five years, whatever it might be, it's going to be that individual. And then what's the one thing that you're going to do this year that will help you achieve that goal? And then at that one thing for this year? What's the one thing you're going to do this quarter and out of this quarter? What's the one thing you're going to do this month? And, you know, it really puts the onus onto the employee, because it's their career, but it's supported by the business. So the other leader is also holding them accountable. And it you want to one saying, okay, Lachy, you said your one thing this month was to listen to that podcast episode, did you do it? What did you learn from it? And you can even take that little bit further and say, Hey, why don't you share that with the team? So you know, so I think there are things that can be practically done. For those that are interested, I completely understand not everybody in a business is going to want a career path. And as you said, people will leave when they want to, but also our personal circumstances change. And I don't know about you, but what I saw as my career path, when I left school, when I finished uni, you know, property for 10 years ago, is nothing like where I am today. So yeah, you know, so things change as well. But, you know, I was looking at other things that businesses are doing right now. And it can be a leap of faith, but some ways that I recently read of employers, you know, testing this idea of how do I just basically release my employees to look at different career paths outside of the business? You know, one of them is enabling secondments of employees to completely different businesses. And, you know, another one is companies that actually support their employees working in their own business on the side to develop their entrepreneurial skills. And there was an article in the AFR recently about how squares parent company block actually encourage staff to start side hustles because they believe that employees who run their own business will be better placed to understand the company's small business, customer base. So, you know, although in principle it makes sense, it's hard for a smaller business where you know, to lose an employee to a common creates a big gap, and maybe you can only feel that through external recruitment. Or, you know, there are WHS implications on that side work, you know, along with potential conflicts and you know, compete additive information. So you know, a lot going on in there. But I wonder, have you heard of any other sort of progressive methods Locky saying that you're in this l&d industry?

Lachy Gray  15:14

Yeah, this is, this is interesting. I just want to just talk about this blokes idea here. I don't know how I feel about that think, tricky. Business or a side hustle is is odd. To think that you've, you're working a job, and then you'd working another job. Yes. And the, it's like, I guess who benefits here? So block saying, well, we run just run this other thing on the side. And that's going to benefit us. Because you're going to have a better understanding of what our customers go through. Right? It potentially puts a bit of pressure on the staff, because if there will be people who perhaps, are inherently drawn to that, and they might already be doing it, because they, they want to do it. And then there's probably other people like, I don't really want to, but it's kind of expected. I feel like I should. And then where's your downtime? That strikes me is a very American approach.

16:31

It's capitalism all the way.

Karen Kirton  16:33

Yeah. And that's why I'm uniquely Australian without WHS laws, because, yeah, that's half my mind immediately goes to that. It's like, as a business owner, you know, we have this complete obligation to our employees. And they're totally fatigued, because they're up until four o'clock in the morning, you know, running there, they dig business or trying to get it going. And then they're working all day for us. And they injure themselves, or you know, they have a psychological injury due to the overwork. Well, like, where's the line? And we're encouraging them to take that gig work on I feel like, yeah, the employer may have obligations there and be responsible, which is really hard. Because it's, yeah, I understand. We want to be able to support people to look at outside interests, and I get what Square's saying in terms of it helps them with their customers. But yeah, it's there's a whole legal framework there, which makes it tricky. And then as you say, what happens if people actually don't want to? And they feel pressured to? And then you're working, you know, 140 hours a week?

Lachy Gray  17:41

Oh, easy. And yeah, I think believing that there's not going to be any negative impacts is just unrealistic. They're going to bleed into each other. Yeah. It's not like you just flick a switch, and then you're focused on your primary job. And then you flick a switch. And you go back, I mean, one of one, you're an employee, you can get a salary and the other it's your baby. Yeah. So I don't know how you run. I mean, it's probably some side hustles more than others. So for example, if you're a designer, where you're doing kind of contract work, it can be done in your own time or a copywriter understand that. But if your side hustle, is working with customers who work a normal business day, yes. How are you doing that? And that would be interesting to see at what point like how understanding is block when those things start to clash? So, anyway, it's an interesting idea. Yeah, look, I think larger businesses do have a leg up here. The secondment idea, I really liked that. I think part of the reason where people leave is the grass is greener idea, right? Yeah. And you can really build it up in your head, I think, Oh, this is going to be much better. And I wouldn't have to deal with this politics, these opportunities. Now. There's upsides and downsides to every role in every company. So I like the idea of putting that to 10 to the test and actually having an opportunity and saying, Oh, well, I made some assumptions here. And this culture isn't exactly what I thought it was. But I do enjoy the role. I've heard of companies offering the staff I think as a reward to be CEO for a day and actually to make decisions. Yeah, is that a reward yourself into? So I think in a small business, this can still be achieved. I think, you know, putting your hand up to work on projects that are outside if you're A day to day role or your comfort zone, to get experience seeing how different people in the business approach things, and to build empathy, you know, as a leader as well, I think it's really helpful to do the roles that are in your team to get an understanding of what it actually actually like, yeah. And tagging along to meetings in other business areas, like sales, customer service it, I think, especially ones that might be a little bit removed from your own day to day, it's so easy to build up like a straw man perspective in your mind, and it is so slow. They always dig their heels in and had the opportunity to actually hang out with him and see oh, well, yeah, there's a lot of competing priorities here. There's a lot of considerations there, they've got to put in place with information security, and all the stakeholder management, this, I think that can be really beneficial. So and like we said, big believer in informal learning, I think we're all learning all the time. So it doesn't have to necessarily be a significant role change to upskill. And another idea is trying out the four day a week. So you have an extra day, to spend how you wish and you might choose to upskill, you might choose to do another job, or study, or learn or volunteer. My barber, for example, I was chatting with him last week, he runs a small business, it's moved to four days recently, they're loving it. And one of his teams now doing a TAFE course, on his day off. That's his choice. I think that's very different, to be encouraged to run a side hustle, in addition to a full time job.

Karen Kirton  22:01

Yeah. Yes, very interesting. I think that, you know, some of what you're talking about there that informal learning, I think sometimes it's actually pointing it out that it is informal learning, as well. And, you know, kind of packaging it up in a way to employees to say, hey, we encourage everyone here to learn. And these are the ways that we do that. Because if we go back to that work day, you know, people leave when they don't see a path. So you need to show them the path. You're in perhaps a topic for another episode is the four day workweek, maybe we can get your barber on. And I actually think barbers would be so interesting to talk to you anyway to see the kinds of things that people talk to them about. So bit fly on the wall.

Lachy Gray  22:47

Absolutely.

Karen Kirton  22:50

But look, I really enjoyed talking about this with you today. And some of the takeaways that I wrote down was, just had the conversation. It's very simple, but it does need to be intentional. And I love that you're using the radical candour process, if people don't want to do that, just have a conversation. I think what you were saying about thinking about small business differently. So I find that people say, Well, we only small so people can't develop here. So actually flip that around, because you need to change the narrative for your employees as well. And so well, we're only small, which means that we all have to chip in, we all learn off each other every day, it's a great way to grow your skills and experiences. So to actually, you know, think about that mindset shift. And I really liked when you said, you know, they'll leave when they're ready to. And as much as we all want our people to stay with us forever. You know, it's, it's not always a good idea, either, like there comes a point, even with the best employee where there's a time that they're going to leave, and maybe that's 20 years down the track. But you know, there's, there's a time for everybody, because at the end of the day, it's not their business. What about for you Lachy? What are your takeaways?

Lachy Gray  24:04

Yeah, I liked the What's one thing, framework that you mentioned? Because I think it helps peers that I don't know where to start? Yes. And my assumption is, that's often the reason why these conversations don't happen at all. Because it's like, well, I've never had it. And I'm worried about what the team members going to say, and what happens if I can't deliver on what they want. So what's one thing for this year, this quarter this month, and like it said, that then feeds into that cadence that you have in your one on ones you've got a specific thing that you're talking about? And the employee owns that like you've agreed they've committed to it? I really like that. I think the point about the sort of indicators nine months before quitting was really interesting. And I think I think as business owners, that's something for us to be aware of and then be mindful of, and could be a little easier if we're already having these conversations. And we know that there's a divergence between what they said they wanted to do and what's actually happened. Yes. And we can get in front of that earlier, perhaps. So,

Karen Kirton  25:24

Yeah, that's a great point. There's little indicators. Because, you know, it takes a while usually, for that psychological contract to be broken in someone's head, like, yes, there are times that people just, you know, get a phone call from a recruiter, and it's the perfect job, and they weren't looking like I'm not saying that doesn't happen. But for many people, it actually does take time, but they're, you know, the psychological contract is where they're looking at what's the pros and cons of working here. And at some point that tips, and then you know, they move on. So, yes, I love that. You've got that insight about Yeah, we're having these conversations frequently, then we're going to get those indicators. And the articles that we've talked about today will actually be over on our websites amplify hr.com au and yahoo.com to uh, you can follow the links to the podcast section. Also, just want to remind everybody that we have a new link tree. And we've actually got a special offer on there for our podcast listeners if you go and check it out. So that is link ter dot e slash make it work podcast. And if you receive value from this episode, we'd love it if you could leave a rating or review over at Apple podcasts.

Lachy Gray  26:33

Yeah, and coming up in the next episode, we're going to talk about equal pay and opportunities from a small business perspective.

Karen Kirton  26:44

Excellent. So that podcast is coming up in two weeks from now click on that subscribe button and you'll be notified of when it's available. Any final thoughts Lachy?

Lachy Gray  26:53

What's one thing that you can do to progress career conversations in your business?

Karen Kirton  27:02

I like it because even though we've been talking about this, I'm starting to think about things that I need to do my metre. So thanks, everyone for joining us. We'll see you next time on the Make It Work podcast.