Creating a Culture of Kindness

Transcript

Karen Kirton  00:06

Ready to welcome to episode 14. And we decided today that we would revisit the most downloaded episode of season three, which was about what kindness looks like in the workplace. And we recorded that episode in March 2022. And at the time, I did a LinkedIn poll about if you were looking at applying for a job, what word sounds more attractive when describing culture. And the options were fun, fast paced performance and kind. And the top answer, which actually surprised us a little bit was fun, at 43%, closely followed by a kind, which led us to a discussion on if there was a place for kindness in the workplace. So we thought it'd be interesting to repeat the poll. And this time, I actually replaced fastpaced with like a family because we also did an episode on if there's a place in the workplace to start talking about it as a family. And actually, the results were slightly different this time in that kindness actually got the most votes, followed by very even on like a family and fun at about a quarter each 26% each. And performance stayed exactly the same percentage as last year, at 15%. So I found that really interesting Locky and, you know, we have had a lot change in the economic climate over the last year as well. What about you? Did you think it would be the same? Or are you not surprised with those results?

Lachy Gray  01:46

Yeah, I do. I do think it is interesting that kindness is in the lead, because I'm trying to think, if I've ever seen a job ad referenced culture, describe culture with those kind, I don't think I have so interesting that it has taken the lead. And also that like a family tied with fun in second place. Because, yeah, we did a whole episode on that, I think last year, talking about family, and we kind of sort of came away from that thinking well, do you actually want your workplace to be like a family? In that you, you can't choose? Who's in your family, and you can't really leave your family either. So that is an interesting one, too. So I still, like we've said in the past, trying to describe a culture in one word, can be tricky. But then how do you? How do you think about the current culture versus of fun culture?

Karen Kirton  02:57

Yeah, I think it is interesting in some of the comments on the poll also said, Well, you actually want a combination of those things. Which is absolutely true. We do want a combination. I think, for me, probably in my stage of life, would I be attracted to a fun culture? I don't know, actually, like, I do want a little bit of fun. But if I could only have one word, that I probably would go with kind in its place. And, you know, perhaps that's part of what we've all been through over the last few years. And you know, we've inserted a lot more of our personal lives into the workplace. And I think that people do want a workplace that that is kind and you know, perhaps even gentle could be, you know, an interesting word to test out what people think of that, which goes against what was what most leadership teams or boards were looking for, you know, I'd say 1015 years ago, everyone was like, We need a performance culture. Clearly, that's not what employees want, though.

Lachy Gray  04:02

Yeah. And so, do you think that there is a mismatch there? Do you hear many leaders talk about themselves as being a kind leader?

Karen Kirton  04:16

No, and I think that what people normally would use in place of kind of be empathetic, so, you know, that quite a lot. Particularly sterilise, you know, 234 years versus kind and maybe kind is seen to be, you know, not businesslike enough. Whereas empathetic, it's got a little bit more traction in that, you know, leadership, training books, podcast kind of space. So maybe that's more an acceptable word. But you know, I think as humans we want kindness, don't we like? We expect that from everybody. We want to think of ourselves as being Being that way. So I think that is there for make sense that that resonates with us in terms of Well, where do I want to spend? Most of my time outside of my personal life? Do I want to be having fun? Or do I want it to be kind?

Lachy Gray  05:18

Yeah, no, I'm just thinking about this from a another perspective of some of the things. Yeah, well, that's all well and good in a current workplace. But does that mean that people are, you know, being overly kind to each other and not actually getting things done? Or are not being direct with feedback? Does that mean that performance is impacted? Because people are worried how other people will receive things? And that just slows things down? What's your take on that?

Karen Kirton  05:53

Yeah, that just reminded me of your, when Amy Edmondson talks about psychological safety. And, you know, she says having a psychologically safe environment doesn't mean that you don't have accountability. And I think that kindness would be the same, you could still be kind to people that have accountability. And one of the things that I'll say be when it comes to feedback, because you know, most of us don't enjoy giving feedback, you know, when it's about, hey, you haven't done this thing, or you haven't done this, right, etc. But it is actually the kind thing to do, because it enables the person to learn and grow, versus three months down the track, you're getting frustrated, they're getting frustrated, they don't enjoy their job, and you know, you're calling your HR partner and say, How do I terminate this person? So? So I think maybe it's reframing how we look at kindness in the workplace. And it's not just about, oh, you know, that person's feeling down and I buy them some flowers, it's actually in all of those behaviours that we do take in the workplace.

Lachy Gray  07:03

Yeah, so what behaviours would you expect to see in a kind? workplace culture?

Karen Kirton  07:12

Gosh, you're really giving me tough questions. I think it would be, you know, those open, transparent conversations, it's about thinking about, you know, people, as humans in the workplace. And, you know, I did a session recently with a client around the value that I was sharing examples of different values, and one of the values in my business is being human. And, you know, one of the managers in that session, she said to me, I just love that value. Because under that, you know, we say, you know, we have compassion, we have fun, you know, we understand, we're all human beings. And, you know, I think kindness plays a part in to that, in that it's actually, we're saying, we understand that we are a business, but at the same time, we're going to make decisions in a way that does meet the business goals, but it's done in a kind way. So you know, but the feedback example I gave you, or it could be, you know, when we're onboarding people, that we're making sure that they, they have a buddy, because that's a common thing to do. You know, there's lots of those little things that can also be seen as other things, you know, within the workplace, or if you're looking at when they talk about empathetic leadership, you know, part of that is kindness, or actually taking positive intent. And if somebody is taking a lot of sick leave, or you know, they're not really present in the workplace and actually say, Okay, well, you know, how do I manage this in a kind way and actually, first try and understand what's going on with them, versus going to the policy and saying, hey, you've been off for two days, because you're sick leave. So that'd be what I would envision those behaviours looking like, but I don't know what employees would envision or whether it's just hey, I like the sound of that word. Because if we're doing a poll, like what would you have chosen?

Lachy Gray  09:11

Probably kind out of those four. Yeah, well, I think I've changed my perspective on kindness. Because I think before I did the workplace, I thought that it was like a personality trait that some people were kind and some people weren't. Then some people inherently seem to be good communicators, they would listen, they would help other people, they were empathetic. They were compassionate. And other people I felt just just were and then now that I've got into the workplace, I thought I think of it more of if that's the kind of goal or outcome, then I think about what are the actual behaviours and that we could look for and want to grow and actually train against. And that gets to what you're talking about, I think. So approaching feedback in a particular way, which is, yeah, check asking for permission, if now's a good time to give feedback, preparing for the feedback and thinking through how to present it in the best way to help that person actually do something with it, you know, to lift them up while rather than to bring them down to ask good questions, and really trying to get to the bottom of things to align with people, so that we can move forward together, rather than sort of butting heads and disagreeing and going around in circles. So I really changed my perspective on this, I think over time. And yeah, I just, I don't know if I've worked in a, I think yado is a kind of workplace culture. So that's me personally saying that, because the behaviours that I think characterise it, so yeah, empathy, respect. consideration for others, thinking about each other's well being, I think they're on display. More so than, yeah. As being a family, for example, I've evolved my thinking on that side of it for sure.

Karen Kirton  11:38

So what do you think are some other common words that would be used to describe workplace culture? Like I said, you don't think I've ever seen kind in a job before? So what are some of the things that you've seen or you think should be used to describe workplace culture?

Lachy Gray  11:55

Yeah, well, I think I've seen very positive, engaging, I think people write about the culture and a really upbeat way, often talking about results. Yeah. Seems to be a common way of doing it. But I am curious as to, could we get better? I mean, I appreciate that. Culture can feel like an intangible. So how do you articulate it? In a job ad? It's a very sort of 2d representation of, of your, of your culture, something that you live in breathe every day? You mentioned the psychological safety, or a call or environment is psychologically safe. That's an interesting one. I think that is language that is becoming more common. In the workplace, it's not a really, it's not really exciting language. It's not especially positive language in terms of growth. It kind of feels like the minimum doesn't it like to be psychologically safe? You would hope that, yes, that is like a foundation for for a culture. So that's, that's one way I think. Inclusive, is another because I think the we can be diverse in many different ways, like, in in gender and culture in race and experience, but in our thinking, as well. And this is something that, that you talk about, and we're actually gonna do some training with you in whole brain thinking so that we can upskill in understanding our own thinking preferences and those of everyone around us and how can we best communicate? So I think that's interesting as well. But again, I think it's probably not enough just to have one of these one word descriptions. Yeah, I think actually, for me, it's more about what are the activities that the business does to support these these one word descriptors, so you can talk about being an inclusive culture, but what are you actually doing? Like, how do you know that? How do you measure that? That's what I would look for in the in the job ad. How about you?

Karen Kirton  14:24

Yeah, and I think that's a great point. And I think all those words, you know, resonate in different ways with different people. You know, I think that things like psychological safety, if that was a job ad, for someone in HR or for a leadership position, or a psychologist, they would absolutely understand what that means. Whereas, you know, perhaps if you're doing it in other industries or other roles, I'd be like, what, what on earth is that one, so it would be more describing? You know, and I did a broad search on an online job board for just jobs and accounting. But let's just see what comes up. And culture was described as great, excellent, risk, enjoyable, Team engaging, upbeat, high performance, supportive, dynamic, warm. And there was just one that said fun. You know, the most common were fantastic and great. And I just thought, How boring? Well, exactly. So, you know, are those same companies trying to sell their products by saying, Oh, our products are fantastic, our products are great. You know, I bet they're not. And I think, you know, to your question, this is what doesn't get enough consideration in workplaces is, let's just not say we have a great culture, we have an excellent culture or a team, like, what does that mean, here? And let's actually really unpick that and work out what that means. And what is it now and what do we want it to be? And then, you know, how do we actually word that in a way that we communicate that to our employees and our potential employees, that this is the type of culture that we want to achieve all that we have, right now you've got a great culture now, you know, I think there's really a huge opportunity here for businesses to reflect on how to describe their culture, and you know, put that into those Employer Branding materials, because you're going to drive the right candidates through the door, if you go from just saying, Oh, we have a great culture to be able to say, Here, we have a culture, where we practice, you know, positive intent, and we have open feedback, and we're kind to each other, like, all of a sudden, that is going to attract and filter out people to applying for that job. And also just differentiate you from the other ones. Out there, so yeah, so I really encourage people to take the time to do that, because it's not a difficult thing to do. You might not always like the answers, if you go out to a staff and say, How would you describe the culture right now? But, you know, even if you don't like the answers, actually, that's such a valuable activity to know. Oh, is that what people think? Okay, we've got a job to do. Or oh, you know, well, people think the culture is like this. That's awesome. How do we leverage it? So, you know, I think weather, you know, kind didn't come up in any nice job as predicted. And so then I actually I did another search for HR jobs, and actually didn't describe the culture. at all, it just said, you know, you are responsible for building the culture. Yeah. which I found fascinating, actually, because I would have thought that out of all the people to be applying for jobs, they're probably the ones that have been most interested in some good descriptions of what the culture is right now. Yeah.

Lachy Gray  18:01

Yeah, I like that. I like your examples. And in your advice there, I think that's, that's very true. And I wonder, too, if there's an opportunity to include your values, and actually, not just the values themselves instead of one word or this pithy statements, but what does that look like? How is that value demonstrated? Yes, in the business? What are the behaviours that align with that value? I think that's another way to do it. Because that also says to me that, well, there are values. And that I mean, something, yes. That, ideally, people can speak to them, they can give feedback against them. Both positive and constructive. And I think that's a that's another way to really describe culture to

Karen Kirton  18:56

Yeah, I think that's right, I think, you know, and even if it's not in depth in the job, as it absolutely has to be part of the interviewing process, and, you know, I was chatting to someone recently, and they're in a construction industry. But, you know, it's quite a big kind of corporate ish type of organisation, and, you know, they're trying to work out well, how do we, you know, really explain to job candidates that our values matter to us. You know, because it is a very different environment to a lot of other companies in the construction industry, because it's a very fragmented industry, lots of sub contracting, you don't tend to come across company values. So, you know, one of the things that we talked about is actually just you know, when you get a candidate and if you think they're pretty good, then give them a paid day on the job site, but actually give them a sheet of paper at the start of the day. So these are the things that I want you to watch out for reflect on that we're going to talk about at the end of your day, and one of them you is, you know, their value is service, for example, you know, over today, what did you see that you thought met that value of service? Or didn't? You know? And here's some examples of the types of things we're talking about. So, you know, did you have any interactions with the end? Customer, you know, did you see people interacting with other subcontractors like, so to not just say, Hey, these are our values, but to actually explain to, you know, the candidates, this is actually what it looks like, and give them the opportunity to experience that. And I know, that can't happen in every industry. But, you know, in this particular case, you know, because most people are going for those jobs have ABS, because their subcontractors, you know, it's pretty easy just to invoice for a day's work, and most people would be happy to do a day's paid, you know, sort of half training if you work in that way. But you know, but I think there are ways to still do that in other jobs as well. You know, just as an example of how you can really start to get the candidate thinking about this is what it means for us here. Because I think sometimes we forget that, you know, this is a two way process. And the candidates, if you say to them are values that x, y and Zed, they're gonna go, oh, that sounds great. But they're not really understanding what does that mean, when I start working for you? Sure.

Lachy Gray  21:21

I think that's a fantastic example. And the best time to get somewhere living and breathing the culture is, you know, well, ideally in the interview process, isn't it? Yeah. That's they're excited, enthusiastic, both sides should be hopefully. Yeah, I think we, we try and include questions, either related to, or specifically about our values are when we're hiring. In the interview process, we ask candidates, like, what do they think about that value? Like, what does that look like? To them? What does it mean to them? Do they resonate with it? Okay, if they don't, and then, you know, talking through an onboarding, what it actually looks like. And, you know, trying to give feedback against the values as much as we can to make them living breathing things. I think that's important. So, I'm curious to Karen, like, how do you think remote and hybrid work have changed what employees expect from workplace culture? Since we last did this survey a year ago?

Karen Kirton  22:32

Yeah, it's a good question. Because we have been able to bring our home lives into work as never before. And it's very difficult these days to split home and work. And I think I was talking with my upper Lika, from juggle strategies to give her a plug, because I think her and her business are great. The other day, you know, and we were talking about, you know, hybrid work, and how that's changed people's expectations. And one of these shows, which I found super fascinating was that through the pandemic, you know, we were all living in these tiny little bubbles of our home. And so we really learned everything was about I and me. And actually, we're really struggling to get back to the weigh in us. And, and I thought, that was actually like, such a good thing to reflect on. Because I know for me, and I've had friends as well say to me, Oh, I just, you know, I don't want to go to that dinner, I don't want to go to that concert, I don't want it like, I just can't be bothered, like, we've all kind of lost that little bit of AUMF that we use to have. And so and I think where that leads itself into the workplace is to, you know, start thinking about flexibility and working from home, you know, we're still having it in a lot of cases from that Imy lens rather than a, okay, how does this work in the business has this worked for us? And that goes to culture as well. So I think it's something that everyone's still working through. I know, everyone's probably completely sick to death of talking about the pandemic, but it's still impacting a lot of areas of our lives, despite no longer having lock downs and PCRs every second week. So, but I think that the expectations of people are, you're going to consider my personal circumstances and, you know, my needs above and beyond potentially, in some cases, the needs of the business. So and I think that's a really particular challenge for many companies right now.

Lachy Gray  24:43

Yeah, definitely. And it can be an uncomfortable I guess, especially for leaders. Because you might get feedback then there isn't a consensus, and there's not a clear path forward. And that can be really challenging. Especially To think, as you say, if you like to work in a particular way, yet your staff are saying something different. That that is challenging. But to, if we think about these descriptors, these description, descriptions of culture, if kind is up there, as the number one on this poll, then it's about well, listening, and asking the questions and collaborating and trying to find a way forward. And I think, acknowledging that what we do in the next 12 months, will probably change, then that's okay. We've learned that things can change quite significantly and quickly. And that's okay, as well. So they'd be okay with that discomfort, thus accepting it, and trying to find a way through together. For me, I think that's actually a silver lining, that it can be done. But we do, we do have to put the time and effort into it and embrace that discomfort, I think, everybody to get through, because we don't know what it looks like. And we there isn't a best way. Now I think it really is different per company, the work that's being done, and how people want to work within that organisation. And that actually really does come down to culture, doesn't it? Yeah. So getting a good understanding of that organization's culture? What does it actually look like to work here? So from your perspective, like, how do you suggest people get started? If they're trying to better understand their culture as a first step to potentially changing it, or evolving it?

Karen Kirton  26:53

Yeah, I think you got to get ready, you know, strap yourself in. And be prepared to listen to people and to actually hear what they're saying. Because, you know, the results may be really, really pleasant, and they may not be. So that's what I say, you've just got to strap yourself in and be right and be ready for it. In the way that we listen is through having anonymous staff surveys, where, you know, we're asking questions of people, how would you describe the culture, or perhaps, if you, depending on your business, you know, you have a culture where people are pretty open, and maybe you've already got surveys in place, you kind of know, roughly, you know, what people are feeling and what they would say about the culture and it's tends to be positive, then you might go into focus groups, because people will be more comfortable in, you know, speaking up in that kind of environment versus if you've never done anything like this before, then you know, surveys are usually the first place to start. And I think once you get that information, then you've got to have, you know, meeting at the lead team level, whatever that is for your organization's whether that's, you know, if you've got a CEO, you've got a founder or, you know, whoever's at the top, need to get together and have a really honest, robust discussion about, okay, this is how our teams are describing the culture, with what we know, we have to achieve over the next 12 months. Is that going to support those business goals? And if it's not, what's missing? Like? What are the bits that we actually want to see in the culture and let's actually start capturing that. So, you know, I think that's, that's your first point of process. And it's not a difficult one, in terms of time and resources. But it can be a difficult one in terms of you putting your head above the parapet because you're saying to everybody, you know, we want to know what the culture is. And we want to start to really cultivate that because it doesn't take much doesn't work. I'm sure you've experienced this in your career, you know, you just get one person in the business and you can really start to get culture dysfunctional before you even know it, particularly when organisations put someone in a leadership role and they're not ready for it. It can have long lasting impacts. So, you know, so being able to say to people, you know, we are committed to cultivating our culture to make sure that it's always flourishing, that it's not going to lead into dysfunction. That's a really big philosophical step to take in the organisation.

Lachy Gray  29:29

Yeah, that's great advice. And I think one thing I've I've learned over time is that culture is not set in stone. As you say, each person that joins, the organisation contributes to it. And you have people of course, leaving as well who contributed in their own way. So it is always changing. I don't think it's a set and forget exercise. I love the idea of listening. And I think we can do this. Yeah, even just asking people to describe their culture, if we have a one on one eye, how would you describe the culture? I find that really interesting is an exercise that words people will use. Because we're all doing this, right? I, often when we're talking about work, your house work, we are describing it, perhaps we just don't think of it as formally as culture. But it is because that's the environment that we're working in every day.

Karen Kirton  30:31

Yes. Yeah. I'll also ask people, you know, how do you describe the organisation when you're at a barbecue? Or how do you describe it when you're doing a job interview, and sometimes people are actually quite surprised at how they describe the organised job interview versus the words that they just gave me. So, you know, that can be an interesting aside to do, as well as actually just record yourself in terms of what you normally say to to candidates? And, you know, is that actually aligned with what everyone else is saying? So? Look, I think that, you know, added today, in terms of my takeaway is that, you know, in terms of what I think, as a listener, could be some actions for you is, if you haven't already thought about the culture of your organisation. How do you describe it? And then, you know, is that working for you? Do you need to undertake some activities with your teams to actually try and get some words around the culture that you can use to attract people into the business and actually really drive that culture? And I'd encourage you to think about that word kind, because that clearly resonates with people. How about you Lachy, any takeaways for you from today?

Lachy Gray  31:44

Yeah, I think making it an ongoing conversation. I like that idea that your suggestion of how do you describe your workplace when you're at a barbecue when you're catching up with your friends. And that's why I always enjoy the hiring process, because I get to hear how other Jana was described the culture. I find that really interesting. We all have our own perspective, of course, and it's different, it will be different. So asking the questions and collating it, and perhaps, say once a quarter, bringing that together and saying, Well, are we aligned here in? Is there a change? And if there is, let's talk about it. So that everybody is clear. And yeah, I like the idea of considering what is kindness look like? What has been a family look like? What is fun look like? You might not use those words in your organisation. But I think it's the behaviours that contribute towards them that are the key takeaway. And have they been demonstrated? And if not, do we want them to be?

Karen Kirton  32:57

Yeah, absolutely. And links to the articles and anything else we've discussed will be over on our websites such as yahoo.com.au, and amplify hr.com. Or you just follow the links to the podcast section. If you receive value for this episode, we'd love it if you leave a rating or review over at Apple podcasts. And also, just as a reminder, we do have that new link tree address with a special bonus for all podcast listeners, which is link TR dot e slash make it work podcast. And we're actually breaking for a few weeks for the school holidays. So if you click the subscribe button, you'll be notified of when the next episode is available. Any final thoughts Lachy?

Lachy Gray  33:41

Just get out there and ask the question, How would you describe our culture? The MC here the results.

Karen Kirton  33:48

Absolutely. Thank you so much for joining us, and we'll see you next time on the Maker It Work podcast.