This year, Yarno celebrated turning six in style. To commemorate, we got the whole team together in Windsor, NSW. It was a great couple of days getting to know everyone better and smashing some birthday cake.
Six years is a long time – you can learn a lot, and you can make a lot of mistakes. And so I thought, why not check in with the founders?
It’s been a hot minute since we last did that – and there’s been a mountain of change over the last few years. In that time, Yarno has gone from an office-first Sydney-based company to a fully remote company, with employees all over Australia and in the Philippines.
We’ve navigated remote work challenges such as maintaining culture and communication; surely Mark and Lachy have some insights on how this is different from leading an office. Turns out – they do!
So without further ado, I present the 6-year check-in with the Yarno co-founders.
Ellie: Put yourself in your own shoes 6 years ago. Did you think you (and Yarno!) would be where you are today?
Mark: I often reflect on this. We were initially just trying to get ourselves a regular salary!
If you’d told me 6 years ago we'd have some of Australia's largest brands on the platform I'd never have believed it. Starting out with an untested idea with no customers was a daunting process for sure - many grey hairs have formed! In those early years, it was a battle to find progressive companies and convince them to take a chance on trying a different way of learning.
I think the market has moved slower than I expected - I was still having MDs tell me in 2016 that they 'didn't want their team using mobile phones'. That sentiment has definitely changed, but the status quo of doing long-form training still persists in many companies.
And then it’s always a shifting goal post. How do you measure success? Once you achieve one thing, it’s always onto the next big goal. You don’t stop pushing the boundaries.
Lachy: I didn't know what to expect, and hoped we'd still be going one year in!
We were really looking to build a product that worked, run a successful free pilot, then use those learnings to find the first customer who will pay us. I still have the first cheque we got!
I'm immensely proud of the culture that developed over time, and the Yarnoers who have contributed to it and still do today. I’m proud of the product itself and the fact that we've heard from customers time and time again that it achieves results whilst being fun and engaging. We're working with awesome customers and serving learning to over 35,000 learners. These are things I hoped would be true six years ago, but couldn’t expect.
Personally, I feel as though I've levelled up and done my own personal MBA. I've learned a huge amount about starting a business, growing and leading a team and the practicalities of running a small business. And learning from many mistakes along the way.
I thought we’d grow the number of learners on the platform faster than we did, though I didn't have anything to base that on. I remember making the classic startup mistake of doing an excel doc of learner growth, with an exponential curve going up and up. I've learnt the real world doesn't care much for fantastical excel charts!
E: What was your thought process for going remote? Was it a sudden decision or had it been on the cards?
M: We'd actually already started looking at going remote. We'd been reading a lot about the team at Basecamp and their experiences, and that inspired us to look at how we could do it differently. Working remotely definitely has its perks but I also really miss the camaraderie and the office banter!
L: We all worked from home a few days a week prior to going fully remote, so I didn't think of it as a massive change. Though, I've learnt since that fully remote that it is very different to even hybrid working. Part of the process I enjoyed was researching companies such as Gitlab and Automattic who have been fully remote for years, to understand how they do it. They're very intentional about how they communicate with staff and onboard new staff.
Interestingly most encourage in-person catch ups at least a few times a year. So they’re not avoiding being in-person, they just have a different focus. I tried to bring that deliberate and considered approach to our transition to remote work as well, to make it as seamless as possible.
But I’m still learning about how to do things remotely, and hope I continue to do so. Every business is different, and every team member is different and has unique requirements.
E: How has your leadership style grown and changed over the last 6 years, and going remote?
M: I didn't have a lot of leadership experience going into Yarno - so it was a process of self-discovery for me. I'm lucky that Lachy is always ready and looking for ways to improve how we lead at Yarno.
Going remote, we started to formalise things a lot more. We lose a lot of those ad-hoc learning opportunities so we have to be more planned. One example is we have a weekly Team Leads meeting, and it’s almost like a book club where we read leadership books, to which I’m a reluctant subscriber. (Lachy: [sighs] At least you’re honest.)
L: Office-based leadership and remote leadership is like night and day. I'd had experience leading a team before Yarno, yet it's different when it's your own business, and the business is growing and going through highs and lows. You're recruiting for new roles and trying to work out how to onboard remotely; how to grow a culture remotely, as the business is growing; trying to get the best out of people while also getting out of their way so they can do their best work.
Looking back I feel I've come a long way, and I hope the team would have a similar sentiment. I've learned a lot through trial and error and reflecting on a conversation, or receiving critical feedback, and thinking I could have done that better.
I've got a much better idea of who I am as a leader, and what my leadership style is whereas in the past I tried to emulate leaders I respected. I kind of lost myself in that process. More recently I've been working with an executive coach to identify my strengths and focus on those rather than trying to be this complete leader with no flaws.
I am a people pleaser at heart, so I've had to learn to see giving critical feedback and making hard decisions as things that help other people grow, rather than negatives to be minimised. You can care about someone and still challenge them: the two can co-exist!
E: You were used to working and leading together, but how has this changed since going remote?
M: Lachy’s probably more productive! The banter element is gone from the day-to-day. We don't have lunch together as much anymore.
I definitely miss working closely with Lachy in the office - especially during the early days when you are celebrating the small wins together. We try to remedy this by carving out time where I'll head up to Newcastle for a night so we can catch up and talk strategy or work through a problem together.
We'd also take the team for Gyros when we won a customer which was a great tradition that is hard to do now we are remote.
L: Yeah we don't do lunch! I miss the office chats and walks to get a coffee. When you're in person, I think there are more opportunities for random conversations and connection. And you can also see how someone's going, which I think is much more difficult when you're remote.
E: Have you noticed any new challenges leading remotely?
M: Feedback loops tend to be a little more formal - before we were able to say, ‘hey, let’s go and grab a coffee,’ and have a chat that way with a Yarnoer who might need some guidance. Now it has to be booked in, and that makes it feel less organic.
L: There’s plenty of challenges! One key one is the lack of social connection, so trying to find ways to build that. Another is onboarding remotely. We aim to meet all our new Yarnoers in person for a few days to build rapport and welcome them – I think that's very hard to emulate online.
You never know how someone's going or feeling; you have to rely on seeing them on Zoom or a Slack update they post.
Another one is doing strategy sessions remotely and trying to understand who needs to be in what meeting. In the early days of going fully remote I organised way too many meetings; it was an over-correction of not seeing everyone in-person.
And also spending too much time on Zoom! [Ellie: Zoom fatigue is real!]
E: How has the culture changed?
M: We've had to be more considered with keeping our culture since going remote. For example, we changed the focus of offsites so they are more about team-building and fun, rather than strategy work, or work-related exercises.
We found Yarnoers are craving that social connection, so we've been trying to engineer more opportunities for them to do this.
We've also introduced a wellbeing day, where we are trialing a day per month where you can just relax and do something positive for yourself. The move to remote work has seen an increase in workload as people tend to find it harder to switch off. There is no travel time between meetings, so people tend to back-to-back their days. I think having this wellbeing day sends a signal to say - 'hey, take some time out to live your life outside of work'. [Ellie: Yarno has now formally introduced a wellbeing leave policy!]
L: In many ways you’re trying to recreate some of those random moments in a structured way – in a way that doesn’t feel structured. It’s incredibly hard!
We’re trying to be intentional about in-person catch ups and acknowledging how important they are. But we also have incorporated fun stuff as a team virtually. We have our weekly Friday Morale Symposium, where everyone has a chance to catch up at the end of the week.
Culture isn’t mine and Mark’s. It’s the collective. We encourage everyone to have a voice and grow the culture. Having a constraint like being remote forces you to be innovative about how you do things and try things. Some won’t work, but some will, and some go really well. I get a real kick out of the experimental process!
It's interesting now 2.5 years into being remote, because some of the team worked in the office with us prior to going remote and most didn't. I think going remote after having strong personal connections is very different to starting remote. I have to remind myself that everyone's remote work experience is different and we need to grow the culture accordingly.
E: What happens in the next six years?
M: That's a good question! I'd like to see us keep a similar sized team and continue to sign on customers who really love what we do. We are so lucky that we have a great bunch of A-players in the team, and a stack of customers who have been brave enough to change the way they do learning – to make it fun and engaging for their teams.
L: I didn't know we'd be here six years ago, so take my prediction with a grain of salt! I think we're in a fantastic position now: great team, fantastic product, healthy culture. I’d like to expand our reach in Australia and overseas.
I’m excited to see the culture grow as Yarnoers get more experience and become leaders in their own right, and contribute to the direction of the business. It’s really exciting!
E: What is the most useful thing you’ve learnt from the last six years of leading the Yarno team?
L: Probably the importance of feedback, and building them into as many interactions and processes as possible.
M: Yeah, for sure. Feedback is the number one thing for us. Give feedback early and often.
